VPs

[Wdll]

I know this has been (negatively) touched before, but I just have to ask again.
Please, please increase the VPs for flags in at least PBEM campaigns. As they are now they are worthless for anything larger than a small battle. If you want to play anything large (modern era, 30K points for example) they are worst than worthless, they are a joke. When a single MBT can cost the same or more than a whole set of VPs flags.
This leads to campaigns ( I don't play much single battles that's why I focus on campaigns) where neither side has ANY reason to go for the flags, thus any reason to risk anything. Just hide your tanks/IFVs behind hills, etc, and just send few cheap scouts to capture a flag if that.
It is damaging the whole concept.

That's it.

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by Wdll

I know this has been (negatively) touched before, but I just have to ask again.
Please, please increase the VPs for flags in at least PBEM campaigns. As they are now they are worthless for anything larger than a small battle. If you want to play anything large (modern era, 30K points for example) they are worst than worthless, they are a joke. When a single MBT can cost the same or more than a whole set of VPs flags.
This leads to campaigns ( I don't play much single battles that's why I focus on campaigns) where neither side has ANY reason to go for the flags, thus any reason to risk anything. Just hide your tanks/IFVs behind hills, etc, and just send few cheap scouts to capture a flag if that.
It is damaging the whole concept.

That's it.

That is not damaging any concept whatsoever.

Victory hexes exist as a bonus on top of the primary military objective of destroying the enemy force, while preserving one's own. They are not the primary aim of the battle!.

Victory hexes exist as an "attractor" for the AI force. They can also be regarded as attractors for the type of human player that concentrates too much on them himself, especially if he tries too early for them.

The game mechanism uses the V flags as an indicator of when to trigger an early termination of the game, if one side is considered defeated (broken). i.e the other side has achieved the primary game purpose (destruction of the enemy force, or reduction in morale so it is a broken routing mass).

Therefore the V-hexes can be regarded as an "attaboy" to reward success, and nothing more for the human player. They might swing the result up a level, but not much more.

V-hexes count at the end of the battle, so there is no need to do an AI-lemming style rush for these. A human opponent doing so is descending to the AI's level. He is a lemming !

So playing a human player, first concentrate on killing his forces while not losing too many of yours. If your human opponent is lemming to the objectives, use that fact to manoeuvre round him to kill him, and direct arty etc on his campers on the objective zones.

When the enemy force is defeated, then you might consider sweeping up objective hexes for a few "atttaboy" points, and to trigger game end from (enemy force broken + all objectives held by you).

But this game is not a paint-ball type capture the flag exercise. In a paint-ball game it matters not if you lose 99 out of 100 troops so long as number 100 picks up the "victory flag" on the enemy bunker and waves it about.

SP is about killing enemy points, and not losing yours in the process. You can use manoeuvre and/or attrition styles of warfare to do so but preservation of own force is vital.

Leave the V-hexes to police up at end of battle when you have destroyed the enemy or routed him. Only take objective areas during the battle if the position offers you a fighting advantage. (Attracting the lemming AI (or similar humans!) can be considered such of course ).

Andy

[Imp]

For meetings if you want victory hexes to be important download the system they use over at the Blitz by Weasel & Kiwi or I can email you it. At the end of the game you enter flags controled & player scores in a spreadsheet to determine victory level. Has a larger range of results 9 instead of 5 & you need to control flags to get the best ones or stop the other player doing so. Note in this system flag points are ignored so deduct from player scores as flags are handled by the spreadsheet.
In effect what it does is always give flags the same worth regardless of force size which is I think what you want.

[Wdll]

Thank you for your replies.


Imp, that won't be necessary, but thanks.

[DRG]

The final factor not mentioned to this point is that this bit of code was assigned a single byte value probably sometime in 1994 or 1995 and that limits the number to 0-255, unsigned -or -127 to +127 if signed. In this case it's a signed number which makes 255 the limit

Changing that data would change how every bit of code saved after it is stored which would render every sceanrio, campaign and save game useless.

ALL the arguments Andy put forward are valid but the fact remains 255 is the limit.

Don

[Hermit]

Would it be very difficult to add code in the end that would multiply the (1 to 255) VP values by a set factor based on force size when calculating game end points?

[_Tim_]

Here's another way to look at and use victory hexes.

I play long campaigns vs AI and even starting with a small core the build-up of experience generates force values over 20k. So the same issue about the relative worth of VPs is true.

In the set-up for each battle it is possible to edit the map. I use this option specifically to place victory hexes so that there is a physical objective for me to attain. The random placement tends to put them in the middle of bare patches of ground etc. So I look for map features that make some sense as objectives that a commander might be given. The sort of things I'm looking for are bridges, road junctions, villages or groups of buildings, prominent hills/ridgelines etc. The victory hexes have a symbolic value as objectives which does not rely on the points. In effect I create a mission, "take that hill!" or whatever it might be. Because I'm fighting AI killing every unit is pretty much a given because the AI just doesn't know when to quit. But for me the point of the battle is achieving the mission, and the victory hexes represent the mission objectives. I never look at what the hexes are worth in points, but I sure as hell want to get those hexes because the mission is a 'failure' if I don't, regardless of the score. I also adjust the battle length so that there is an element of working 'against the clock', but without having to do the AI style lemming charge. If I get this right I have to fight an aggressive battle, but not being stupid, to reach the objectives 'on time'. In the context of the long campaign not losing lots of core troops in the process is also critical because I want to preserve the hard won experience. This means it is less fun being a support unit in my army, they tend to be first into danger every time

I don't play PBEM so I don't know if this idea is useful, but if it is possible for both players to view the map in advance then perhaps the mission objectives could be agreed and the victory hexes placed accordingly. If each hex is given max points value and victory hexes are stacked it would also partly remedy the problem of low values because each side could have just one or two victory hexes worth over 1000 points each.

cheers,

Tim

[Wdll]

What about his. The VPs hexes are worth more for determining who the winner is, than in actual points. So, they don't give more points for repairs etc, but they do for determining who won the battle. In very simple terms, if one side controls 2 out of 3 VPs AND lost at least X amount less points due to damages etc, he gets the victory, instead of draw or whatever.

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by Wdll

What about his. The VPs hexes are worth more for determining who the winner is, than in actual points. So, they don't give more points for repairs etc, but they do for determining who won the battle. In very simple terms, if one side controls 2 out of 3 VPs AND lost at least X amount less points due to damages etc, he gets the victory, instead of draw or whatever.

That does not cover the person who gets his force completely and utterly trashed in doing so. Losing your troops for a bit of mud somewhere is not a "victory". Ask Pyrrus what he thought about all of his "wins" over those pesky Romans..

As stated in my post above - the VH are just a little hint as to where to go to trigger the end of the battle, and a small bonus for doing so. Sweep them up as a by-product of eliminating or routing the enemy but don't waste your units in a lemming charge in doing so.

You do need to hold the flags uncontested for an early end-game trigger. But that is not that vital an objective. Take your time, it is the impatient who tend to get ambushed.

In the meantime preservation of your force while meanwhile killing his is the path to victory in these games whether attacking or defending. Your primary source of VP come from breaking his toys, and vice versa. It is not a game of "capture the flag", it's warfare and not paint-ball.

Andy

[Wdll]

What you say makes sense.
BUT, my experience with at least some enemy is this. They only commit a fraction of their force, usually scouts+ATGMs+snipers which can do a lot of damage before getting killed (points wise). He never has to commit more, he can just hide 80+ percent of his forces. With some lucky strikes, even if you get the VPs, he can get at least a draw. There is no incentive to commit more. The VPs (point wise) in flags are close to worthless in anything larger than a medium battle). What happens then is the other opponent says, why try to capture the VPs, I will do the same. After a battle or two, we have a handful of units from each side fighting while whole companies are hiding in the "woods".
Where if there was some strong bonus for the flags, that would create pressure to both sides to try to do something more than WW1 trenches battles.

If the "chicken" in the above battle/campaign, knew that the other player daring and capturing and holding the flags will get something more than losing tanks etc, for example either repair points or "points" toward the campaign (the points you get for winning/losing/draw), then it would make the battles in a campaign more interesting against them.
Even as an option.

All the above, IMHO.