Newbie co-op vs. AI... Help!

[Xentropy]

I'm fairly new to the game, and I only play one way at the moment: My friend and I co-op against the AI. Obviously at first we had no issues since the base AI is pretty much a cakewalk, so we increased the difficulty until we got a challenge.

Herein lies the problem: Using TDM AI on low bonus is a bit of a cakewalk, but on moderate bonus, we get our asses handed to us every time without even standing a chance.

Settings: Medium mid-life quadrant, two of us teamed vs. medium number of AI and neutrals, high difficulty TDM, medium bonus. 5000 point races, both of our races are designed well by everything we've read on these Boards...mine is research focused, his is religious for talismans. We start new games until we start close enough that we can meet within the first 10 turns, then tech share fully and work on separate projects, but still have a very difficult time keeping up with the AI's 3x tech. My friend usually land rushes, while I tend to fill in a little better as I expand, but in pure expansion we both exceed the AI's abilities (higher colony/system counts, usually by a somewhat wide margin). Just FYI, we play TCP/IP and are usually on the phone voice with each other as we play, so it's a true co-op.

Still, thanks to all of the AI's values being tripled, we can't keep up. Usually by turn 20-25 the AI is knocking on our doors with a fleets of 15-20 or more ships which outtech and vastly outclass our smaller fleets. Satellite defense has proven useless against TDM AI's which use proper ship designs to easily counter missile and beam sats (heavy PD from the get-go, usually). They generally have at least rudamentary minesweeping sooner than we can have mines, rendering those useless as well.

What are we doing wrong? What should we be doing? We read post after post on these forums which say the AI is a cakewalk even on the worst case settings. We read suggestions on making vs. games MORE difficult, such as using a zero point race against AI 5000 point races. And here we are on just MEDIUM bonus (not even high) and in a 2v4 or so we can't even survive past turn 30.

Any suggestions would be great. We've both read the FAQ and utilize the pertinent strategies therein, so repeating those would be less helpful. I'd love to know any of the tricks of the trade that allow all the vets here to win solo games vs. high numbers of high bonus team game TDM AI so easily they have to handicap their own racial points just for some kind of challenge. Thanks in advance!

[Intimidator]

Send me your game-file (and emp-passwords) and I can take a look and let you know. (always like it to see how other people setup and play)

Intimidator

intimidator5@hotmail.com

[ July 31, 2004, 09:25: Message edited by: Intimidator ]

[narf poit chez BOOM]

I dunno. Try weapon platforms. I'm just an amatuer and I don't play much anymore. Only things I can think of to suggest is weapons platforms - which I've never had to use, because I only went up against a TDM ai once and it was optimized for short-term battle in a large galaxy - and intelligence, which I always turn off. So, uh, I would have no idea how you would use these effectivily.

[PvK]

Well y'know, the difficulty of tripling all point values, being described as "Medium", is amusing if you think about it in a certain way. I'd be glad there was still challenge in that mode of play, and reflect on whether you really want to know, before asking for more ways to beat the AI than you already have.

Nonetheless, three main types of answers come to mind, without giving anything away:

* Expand faster than the AI does.
* Learn what the AI does and doesn't do, and exploit that more.
* Team up with your human allies in ways the AI doesn't.

PvK

[Syllogism]

We (I'm the other player) aren't looking for a magical trick to destory the AI instantly, just a few hints so that we actually can have a game that is a challange ( note that, to me, a challanging game is one in which victory and loss are uncertain for much of he game.).
As it stands, we're geting ripped apart by medium ( not too fun to lose by turn 40) or are shreading low bonus AI without breakign a sweat.

a slightly more detiled description of our basic stratigy woudl be:

1. expand heavily (both towards for unified boarders and away to ensure as much territory as possible)
2. continue to expand and build up insustry/research until we contact the ai
3. defend chokepoints
4. once we'rre strong enough, start whittlig down the ai with our (hopefulloy) superior fleets.

Basic fare for a game of ths type, really.

Defensively we're using misile/pd ships as the core of the fleet (especially me since my beams are nearly useless pre talisman) and using them to hold chokepoints. The problem is that they build larger, more technologically advanced flets ( that while slightly less well optimized are generally more then up to the task of obliteratign us)

Should we be working with a different stratigy? like rushing t fighters for defense or mines?
should we just rush he ai ( somehow)?

[Colonel]

well i could always be wrong and this could be hard coded but couldnt you just modify the diffcult level so medium was in between what it is now and easy level, just a thought

[Will]

Well, if you manage to get past turn 40, try this.

Build a bunch (7 or 8 should be good) of small attack/raid fleets. The fleets should be around 7-10 ships strong when you're about equal to the AI in tech. Be sure to train them, make them as fast as possible, and use trial-and-error to find what balance of firepower/protection you are most comfortable with. Also experiment with different setups of formations and weapon layouts through the fleet (eg, if you normally have 2 PDCs per ship for Battle Cruiser and above, for your raiding design, cut it to one and insert a modified Version that has only one normal weapon, and is loaded with PDC enough to compensate for the others; may or may not work for you, but try it). Include a supply ship to extend range, minesweeper to get rid of any mines that may be thrown up, etc.

Once you have these fleets ready, raid your nearest AI rival's territory, in multiple places. The AI (much like a human) has some trouble handling attacks from many places at once. Your goal in these raids is not to capture AI territory, or even to significantly damage anything. You want to go after small fleets and lone ships, once in a while going after a small planet with little to no defenses. The point of this is to decrease happiness in the systems, which will cut back on AI resource production. So, while your fleets are disrupting, you're hopefully holding the AI at bay in your buffer systems, and your own territory is safe, so you can build the *real* attack fleet. After ten turns of the disrupting fleets doing their work, most likely around 15-25 of the original 50-80 ships will be left, and you should have a nice 50 ship fleet ready to do the real conquering against a weakened enemy.

This should work out, but I haven't actually played in a while, so... YMMV.

[Renegade 13]

Originally posted by Colonel:
well i could always be wrong and this could be hard coded but couldnt you just modify the diffcult level so medium was in between what it is now and easy level, just a thought

Unless I'm severely mistaken, this is hardcoded.

As for the original question, well I'm not qualified to answer, seeing as how I still have difficulty against the AI's on medium bonus sometimes (although I don't have an ally). That is what makes the game so much fun, you're never sure if the AI's going to come at you and beat the **** out of you.

[primitive]

First of all: Wellcome to the forum, both of you.

Here are some random bits. All is just my humble opinion and not set in stone:
* Don't listen to the mouse. WP's are useless early
* It should be possible to pull your setup off without mines, but if you do want to use them: Research mines (I) first.
* Forget about missiles.
* Fighters are very effective against some of the AI's, but not all of them. If you use them, use large stacks only.
* Don't build (and pay maintanance on) useless ships. LC's are IMHO the first usefull beam ship(sorry Rex ). Only usefull weapon for smaller ships are Boarding parties.
* Early important Research: Mines, PDC (III), Boarding parties, Ships up to LC, PDC (IV or V), Armor (III), Training. CS and ECM can be retrofitted and should come as soon as posible after you have the tech to build "real" ships.
* Get your ships and fleets trained to the max ASAP.
* Don't waste early research on useless stuff like Propulsion (II or III are OK if it helps you get those colonizers produced faster), Shields, Research II and Minerals II.
* Don't panic, don't fight loosing battles if you don't have to: Fall back instead, watch your happiness (build troops if you have to).
* Choose the time and place for the major battles yourself. Its better to fight with your full trained ships midsystem, than with half your untrained ships at WP.
* If you do fall back, it will usually create an oportunity to slip some raiders behind enemy lines. Sneak them in and bLast away, some of the better offensive AI's will crumble quite easily when their planets dissapear.
* The AI's are stupid, and do follow set patterns. Think out of the box and you should do OK

[JLS]

MINE FIELDS - PLENTY 100 MINED FIELDS.
MINES OVER PLANETS - IN AND AROUND WARP POINTS.
Increase your mine warhead tech as time goes on

Guard key warp points against AI fleet and sweepers. Pick off any lone sweepers.

Warp Points with 100 assorted SATS.

Have 30 Ship Fleets with a few CV's.

Trade with your Buddy (Colonizer type and Transports with each others citizens, if deferent types)

Above all - you will gain experience in no time

[ August 01, 2004, 00:02: Message edited by: JLS ]