Byblical Mod Discussion ("Moved" from Dom3 forum)

[Agrajag]

Hope I don't mess this up!
(I'm manually moving part of a thread from the Dom3 forums that has gone OT, and became OnTopic for this forum, and seeing as how I have no uber-mod powers, I'm just quoting all relevant posts)
This is a discussion about a Byblical Israel Mod for Dom3, which will probably be started on Dom2.

Kristoffer O said:
There will be later addons to dom3 containging Merkavahs, Nephilim and Tetramorphs. I hope no one finds this political.

Nerfix said:

Funny, I've been thinking of that old Nephilim mod for Dominions 2.

Agrajag said:
As long as those aren't the Merkhavot (plural of Merkhava) PDF was talking about
By the way, I think a Byblical-Israel nation could be pretty cool.
Troops will be low-tech, using copper or bronze instead of iron. Commanders could be Judges which pack priestly authority with perhaps minor magic skills (1S or 1A perhaps), Prophets with random elemental and maybe astral + holy, Warlords would lead the troops, etc.

Nerfix said:

Were you the one who suggested that in the one old "suggest new nations" thread? Because I found the idea quite cool.

Agrajag said:
Thanks, ,I'm not sure if it was me, but it does make sense, and I think I did mention this idea before.
I searched the forum for posts by me and was unable to track down the relevant thread, but I did find another great thread:
The Mod Command Brainstorm
I sure hope this thread was taken into account when designing the modding portion of Dom3

Nerfix said:

If you don't have anything against it (and if Illwinter won't get there first ) I'd like to mod your idea into Dom 3 when the time comes.

Agrajag said:
Well, obviously I have nothing against it.
What's better than have my idea "come true"?

Although I would appreciate it if you notify me when you do that, so I can be part of the creative process (or if you don't like people getting in the way - observe the creative process )

Nerfix said:

Sure, I'd need anybody to help me out with mythology, names and such anyway.

Agrajag said:
I'm not that much of an expert on the subject, but I'd definitely lend a hand. I'm sure the hebrew wikipedia will also come in handy (and if all else fails, I do have a bible teacher (who is probably not going to like me much after my last test [Which doesn't matter much, since as of tomorrow I am finished with byble ])
Also, I managed to find that post you were talking about.
Thank you, ability to preview messages in the search mechanism, and the comfortable easy to use search function of FF.
IMO my old description doesn't sound quite as cool as the new one, but that hardly matters

Nerfix said:

Well, I'm sure you know more than me.

So, now we just wait for the game...

Gandalf Parker said:
You can probably pre-work alot of it.
As far as I can see Dom3 doesnt "break" anything, it just adds to it. So you should be able to do a mod with descriptions, flags, and even most of the units. Then when Dom3 comes out you can look thru the added commands and yell "YES now I can fix that" to go in and make tweaks.

Nerfix said:

Well, that's true.

So, umm, Agrajag, do you have any idea what kind of units they should have, apart from "they should use copper weapons"?

Agrajag said:
I'm not so sure about that, Gandalf.
Wasn't there something said about changing the default resolution sizes of units?
That is, if a unit used to be 32x32 it will now be 64x64?

If that really is the case, then all artwork will have to be redone, in which case we are better we are better off knowing these things before we start.

As for units, to the best of my understanding most of the byblical armies were pretty much "militia class", there was no permenant army, troops were recruited when battle was looming, so I think the general "theme" would be very cheap units, with added "higher quality" units for balance and flavour. (I don't suppose you plan to make an accurate remake of byblical wars).

That said, in my opinion we should have several different unit "models" each with different armaments:
Milita Class (just a bunch of new recruits, unarmored, but 10 morale) with:
Sickle / Copper Short Sword / Short Spear / Scythe / Pitchfork / Club / Sling / Whip
Warrior Class (trained warrior, probably caravan guards and the like turned into soldiers, leather armor, 11 morale, better Attack/Defense than Militia) with:
Short Copper Sword + Small Copper or Wood Shield / Whip / Short Bow / Long Bow / Spear / Hatchet or Axe + Small Copper or Wood Shield
Holy Warrior (maybe something like temple guards, highly trained with copper/bronze armor and high attack/defense/morale, perhaps blessable) with:
Bronze Short Sword / Bronze Long Sword (no shield) / Mace (wooden shaft, copper head) / Spear
All with a Copper Shield.

Atleast that's how I vision them.

If I'm brainstorming, I might as well think of some commanders:
Levi-like(better name needed) - "High Society", the social elite, some priestly power (H2 or H3)
Judge/Warrior Judge - Those judges that bailed the Israelites out of trouble time and time again. Somewhat of a multiclasser, they have priestly authority (H3), are renowned warriors and leader (good stats, high leadership), but also capable of miracles (S1 for scrying-type mystical spells, or A1 or Elemental1 for pillars of fog-like spells)
Prophet - A true miracle worker, high priestly authority (H3 or H4) and versatile miracle workers (S1-3 for scrying mysticism and/or a few elemental picks for control over natural elements, maybe 1A1F1E+2?(elemental))
Religios Scholar / Son of a Prophet - Students of religion, little religious power (H2 maybe), perhaps stealthy.
Scout - Simple as that, probably even less well armed than other nations' scouts.
Warlord - Leaders-Tactitians, they are the ones who plan military moves. Decents stats and very high leadership, perhaps a morale boosting effect.
Maybe more as they come into my head, maybe less if you don't want them.

Heroes could be:
Samson Clone - Extremely high strength mini-thug (but probably no equipment at all, so not that useful)
Elyahu (Elijah in English AFAIK) Clone - A great prophet, H4 A3F3E1W1, can cure afflictions..


That is it for now, my mental well is dry, hope you like my ideas. (And even if you don't, these are just ideas, we don't have to use them)

Nerfix said:
I must say that I aprove the idea of units with whips/sickles/scythes.

Perhaps Judges and Warrior judges could be split into two, one more mage-like and another more of a renown warrior? Though multiclassing is fine by me, too.

Giving astral to the prophets would allow them to participate in Communion with the Judges, and that could be a critical advantage for a nation with very light troops. Astral + elemental pics sounds good to me.

The Levis and Religious Scholars are kinda overlapping...but maybe we'll figure something for them. Maybe an elemental random for the Religious Scholar? Mist-pillar making must start somewhere.

Standard would be good for the commanders, at least the light troops would be inspired ones.

I also like the hero ideas, but I think that Elyahu Clone could have Astral. Astral + Elementals is very Arco-like I know, but Astral also allows the Angel summons which are very fitting to say the least.

I like it so far, if you get any ideas forward them to me.

Gandalf Parker said:
I like where its headed. But lets copy it to its own thread

Done!

It will be obviously much better if some mod would be able to split the thread and move the appropriate posts over to this forum, but this will have to do meanwhile.

[shovah]

curse your lack of uber-modly powers! overall looks like a nice idea, hope to see it asap (would be nice to have a mod or 2 wen dom3 comes out, i probably wont be sleeping for a few days so...

[Agrajag]

*From the other thread*

Endoperez said:

Did you look at the C'tis sprites that were posted earlier? They were 64x64 pixels.

IIRC old sprites were 32x32, which could spell trouble :/
There is a simple solution, drawing the new sprites in 64x64 and then resizing them to fit dom2 (while still holding on to the higher quality originals).
This would mean that it is harder to draw sprites though :\

[Nerfix]

Here's some further refinement on the commander ideas...tell me what you think.

Scout - A simple scout, maybe armed with a staff and a sling. Waste/mountain survival?
Warlord (another name needed) - Basic commander with 25 or 50 leadership and Standard
Temple Keeper (is the name good?) - Social elite and priests. They take care of animal sacrifices in the temple and such.
Judge - He's a judge, a priest and a warrior. 1A 1S 2/3 H, good leader, Standard.

Scholar - Miracle worker in making, he has 1 S 1 Elemental Random and 2 Holy. He has priestly authority but he is more in to the mysterious side of religion than burning lamb fat at the temple.
Commander Needing A Name - The next step of the miracle worker. This one knows more of the Astral laws and elements of the nature. 3H 2S 1A 1 Elemental Random
Prophet (needs a new name) - *The* miracle worker with great knowledge and power. He has 3H 3S 1A 2 Chained elemental randoms.

[shovah]

Temple keeper is fine, they all look good. For the commander needing name how about Interpreter/Dream reader. would make sense that he has the astral+holy but not sure about elements. They could also use some sort of un-holy mage (or else they will all be too expensive) but its not needed.

[Nerfix]

Well, I kinda thought that the 2nd tier mage would be further progression of the Scholar so he would at least have the Elemental random, but I guess the Air could be shaved off. Of course such continuity could be broken and have him be 2 H/2 S.

"Interpreter" sounds good.

As for non scared mages...got any ideas? The lil' marigno-pythian inside me really, *really* likes the idea of priest mages but I am open to suggestions.

[Agrajag]

Here are my further thoughts:
Scout with staff and sling sounds great, if we had deserts I'd give him "Desert Survival", but Waste/Mountain Survival should do it (Waste sounds more logical than mountain to me)
Warlord - The name is good, but I realize its problematic :\
I went for Warlord because of the "Sarei Milhama" which some kings had. The most accurate translation of that is "Warlord". Perhaps "Minister of War" might work? (which more resembles the direct translation)
Temple Keeper sounds kind of forced. I think we should just come up with a name like "Rebel Warrior" (like the rebels that beat "Antiochus" [don't know his English name]) or maybe something like "X Warrior" where X is some sort of tribal affiliation.
Judge - sounds cool.
Scholar - This guy is very similar to the judge as far as magic goes right now, I'm not sure if we should do something about it, or just differentiate them by Holyness (Judge being H3, Scholar being H2) and price (Judge costing more money)
Prophet - I kind of like the name, but I guess it isn't really practical :\
How about *searches web for synonyms* Augur/Clairvoyant/Seer/Prophesier (I like the last two the best)
I also think he should be slightly more magical, maybe add F1 ? (pillar of smoke/pillar of fire )
Middle-Mage - Interperter sound nice, though not optimal. Visionary is another option (which isn't that good :\)
I'm tempted to call him Kabbalist or Cabalist (the second one seems further from Kabbalah), but I don't really know much about Kabbalah, and I think its too real-world-religiony for the game.

Another commander idea: "Captain of Fifty" ("Sar Hamishim"), this is sort of a byblical cushy goverment job, which would give us another none-holy commander, perhaps with a patrol bonus.

[Nerfix]

I'd rather call the Warlords Sarei Milhama because it deviates from the norm of english commander names.

Well, I had the idea of the Temple Keepers being 'just' priests.

I'm all for Pillars of Fire. If you have any byblical name suggestions for the commanders, tell me.

Visionary and Prophesier also sound kinda good to me.

Some real world ties are good, too much is bad, agreed.

Hmmm, Captain of Fifty sounds kinda good too...

[Agrajag]

Just going over commander names to inform of hebrew counterparts (perhaps they will sound fitting, its hard to look at these things objectively while knowing what the hebrew names mean )
Scout = Saiar
Judge = Shophet / Shofet
Scholar = Melumad / Mascil/Maskil / Talmid(actually pupil/student)
Prophet = Navi
Temple Keeper = Shomer Hamikdash / Magen Hamikdash (Hamikdash actually means "The Temple", but its either that or what would be translated as "Keeper of Temples" [which seems akward, atleast in hebrew])
Commander Needing a Name = Mephaked shtsarih Shem

(EDITED FOR SPELLING MISTAKE)

[Nerfix]

They sound very nice, I especially like Shophet and Melumad.