Lady of Fortune Caelum

[Blitz]

One of the few races I haven't played extensively is Caelum. It really didn't appeal to my playstyle (Arco/Marignion mainly). Lately, however I've come to appreciate the mobility advantage in the game, not to mention the strengths of a basic researcher with AAW skills. Add to that the free 120 points that come with cold 3, and I'm definately going to spend some time learning it more thoroughly.

Initial efforts with a rainbow seraph pretender were not spectacular. Mammoths weren't what I had hoped as meat shields. Trampling fliers dosen't seem to make sense, but I digress. The Temple guard, however was very impressive. A second game with a W9 Son of Neifel blessing was very satisfactory.

W9 bless seems to make the most sense for these guys. You get speed, defense, and double strikes on a unit that can get over 18 protection. The prefect meatshield for my Seraphs.

Now the problem. Which pretender to use? I knew that if I wanted W9 I should take a pretender with inherant Water abilities. I also wanted a little Nature magic so I could cast GOH and forge rejuvination items and such. Without communion, my hasted Serpahs weren't going to Last long. The obvious choice was the Lady of Fortune, a pretender I had never used before. No other pretender allowed an offordable W9 bless, Level 3 nature magic, and two other paths at level 3. It wasn't even close. So for what I wanted, this was my gal.

This is what I came up with:

Lady of Fortune
Domain 6
Heart of Winter OR Restless Worshipers
Cold +3
Turmoil -1
Castle

Fire 3
Water 9
Astral 3 (Yes I know, I'll empower her with clams)
Nature 3

Which leaves me with a grand total of -40 points. Which begs the question: Where to get that 40 points from?

Polls are annoying, so I won't post one, but here are your choices

(a) Misfortune -1 (Rely on our pretender for luck)
(b) Turmoil -2 (Who needs money, we're using 90% bless troops anyway)
(c) Ditch Heart of Winter or Restless Worshippers
(d) Death -1 (By the time I feel it, gems not gold buys troops)

The other options aren't really feasible. I can't downgrade the castle or take sloth because my troops are so resource-heavy. Drain really hurts hasted casters, and we're killing with magic. I need to tip a scale somewhere, but I can't decide where.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Blitz:
[QB]Fire 3
Water 9
Astral 3 (Yes I know, I'll empower her with clams)
Nature 3

I have to ask what you are planning to use the fire and astral magic for, since they are both a huge expense.

(b) Turmoil -2 (Who needs money, we're using 90% bless troops anyway)

Everyone needs money. I wouldn't play Caelum without order 3 as I want to buy three or four high seraphs per turn along with troops to go with them.

I need to tip a scale somewhere, but I can't decide where.

I would get rid of both the fire and astral magic personally.

[ May 03, 2004, 01:28: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

[Pirateiam]

I would get rid of both the fire and astral magic personally.

I definately agree. If your strategy is bless effects make sure you have money to buy the sacred units in mass and just the magics you want for blessings. Everthing else is just added cost. Rely on theme mages or independants for other magics.

[Anaxagoras]

I agree with Graeme... I think Turmoil -1 is an awful idea. Order +3 is almost a must with this race. You need cash for High Seraphs, and Seraphines. I also need cash for lots of castles, but I build more of the flying troops, which are resource heavy. It looks like your build won't use iceclads or stormguard much, so you may not need the castle cash. Mammoths are really expensive cash-wise, and I've found them invaluable when fighting heavily armored troops. Pair up mammoths with wingless (in a 1:4 ratio, approximately) and they're good to go. I agree with you about the meatshield thing though.... even after combining mammoths with wingless, they're a pretty "meh" meatshield.
A nice bonus of having Order +3 is that you can easily afford to take Misfortune -1; you rarely get random events, so misfortune doesn't hurt much. I've found that Misfortune -2 can be really painful, though.


I'm also in the "get rid of fire" camp; it doesn't really fit with the race. (I'm not talking aesthetics here.... it just doesn't seem to be a helpful path for these guys.) Astral is an interesting idea, though.... I may want to give that a whirl.

You may want to consider sacrificing Heart of Winter for a higher domain. You have stealthy priests (Seraphines) in case you really want to push your domain. (and thus, your cold)

[DeathDaemon]

Everytime I play Caelum I'm always fighting supply problems. Cold 3 takes time to achieve in nearby provinces (not to mention farther ones away that are reachable by flight). Cold 3 drops supplies big time. I usually go with heart of winter, growth +3 for this reason. And I still end up with everyone of my commanders carrying a bag of wine.

And if you can part with the W9, your mages can cast quickness on themselves, making lightning even more dominating. I usually go with the wizard's tower so I can have a lot of locations to make seraphs and heavy infantry flyers.

[ May 03, 2004, 02:38: Message edited by: DeathDaemon ]

[Blitz]

I would get rid of both the fire and astral magic personally.

How then, do I deal with Burden of Time and other nonsense? And what will I do with all my water gems except make them into clams? Wyverns? Cold-blooded fliers I do not need.

If I ditch fire I can take order 2 and a downgrade to fortress. That I can handle I guess. Losing astral means my clams aren't as good, I can't dispel, I can't forge many of the best items, and my clams aren't anywhere near as good.

Is this better?

Lady of Fortune
Dominion 6
Water - 9
Astral - 3
Nature - 3
60 point Fortress
2 scales (Order, Productivity?)

[Anaxagoras]

Originally posted by DeathDaemon:
[QB] Everytime I play Caelum I'm always fighting supply problems. Cold 3 takes time to achieve in nearby provinces (not to mention farther ones away that are reachable by flight). Cold 3 drops supplies big time. I usually go with heart of winter, growth +3 for this reason. And I still end up with everyone of my commanders carrying a bag of wine.

You run into supply problems? With Caelum? I find that the worthwhile cheap (in terms of gold) troops are extremely expensive in resources. (Storm Guard and Iceclad) Anything cheaper than those two seems to just get killed instantly.

What are you building that you run into supply problems, and how do you use them so they're effective?

[DeathDaemon]

What are you building that you run into supply problems?

Since lightning bolt is so deadly to everything but giants, I usually go with 15+ seraphs with 2-3 storm guards/iceclads on guard commander for each of the seraphs. This makes a pretty scary battle line - (20-24 protection troops in front of massive amounts of lightning bolts, orb lightning, and thunder strikes. Cold spells are only used when I muster up enough flyers to actually send them to the rear. Flying is scary to me due to the routing enemies forced to fight your troops in the way, and like you said the cheaper flyers don't Last long enough.

I also like wind-guide with the blizzard archers, so add 25-50 of them too.

[ May 03, 2004, 03:32: Message edited by: DeathDaemon ]

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Blitz:
How then, do I deal with Burden of Time and other nonsense?

Give astral gems to an ally that has easy access to astral 3 most likely. You are just asking to be mind dueled extremely easily when you take astral 3. Or you can just take an astral 1 high seraph and empower them to 2, then build a skullcap. Burden of Time isn't that likely to be cast with multiple gems anyways, since Ermor has many other uses for death gems.

And what will I do with all my water gems except make them into clams? Wyverns? Cold-blooded fliers I do not need.

Wyverns are an air summon, not water. Do whatever you want with your water gems.

Losing astral means my clams aren't as good, I can't dispel, I can't forge many of the best items, and my clams aren't anywhere near as good.

You still have easy access to astral 1, which is where the most useful astral items are. I would seriously dump both astral and fire magic, to get magic 3, order 3, prod 3, and probably lose the water 9 as well.

[Blitz]

Wow thanks for the quick replies

Okay fire is gone. After doublechecking the only really useful things I would have used it for were the staff of elemental mastry and a few artifacts. I really kinda wanted to try out The Ark. I figured Ark + Bless troops was a natural synergy, but not for 90 points obviously.

Everytime I play Caelum I'm always fighting supply problems. Cold 3 takes time to achieve in nearby provinces (not to mention farther ones away that are reachable by flight). Cold 3 drops supplies big time. I usually go with heart of winter, growth +3 for this reason. And I still end up with everyone of my commanders carrying a bag of wine.

Yeah this sucks bigtime. I couldn't find a random seraph, druid, shaman or anything to find nature sites and it crippled me in my second game. Plus your hasted lightning bolts are just screaming for rejuvination items. My Marignion pretenders always had a touch of green for this reason, but it seems even more critical for Caelum. I want to find those nature sites fast and get that green flowing.

And if you can part with the W9, your mages can cast quickness on themselves, making lightning even more dominating. I really haven't used bless effects, even A9 with air shield and lightning resist doesnt save the mages enough due to their low HP. Plus the seraphs are so cheap that you really dont care too much if you loose a couple here and there

Caelum Seraphs aren't sacred, just the Seraphines, so the blessing is basicly for the temple guards. I see a lot of earthreal troops in the games I play, so Caelum is a natural counter. I certianly don't anticipate much trouble with Emor. With hasted banishings and ice blades, I'm probably good there. Does a group of 20+ Temple Guards take out a well-equipped VQ? In theory the weapons will help, but I guess only time will tell.

A nice bonus of having Order +3 is that you can easily afford to take Misfortune -1; you rarely get random events, so misfortune doesn't hurt much. I've found that Misfortune -2 can be really painful, though.

We play with "fixed" scales unfortunately. Order and luck aren't paired in my games. It's a good idea though, might try it in a different setting.

Mammoths are really expensive cash-wise, and I've found them invaluable when fighting heavily armored troops. Pair up mammoths with wingless (in a 1:4 ratio, approximately) and they're good to go. I agree with you about the meatshield thing though.... even after combining mammoths with wingless, they're a pretty "meh" meatshield.

Mammoths seem to pile up the afflictions pretty quickly too! That low def/ac, plus the way they always get surrounded. Bah. Another reason to have a ton of nature gems lying around. I sure do miss those Arco priestesses. They do get a LOT better with experience though. In my Arco games I had a herd of 4+ star elephants that NEVER routed after their third star. I mixed in a few herald lances and those guys kicked *** for me. W9 temple guards are REALLY nice shields though... in cold 3 I had a few 22 armor 19 defense veterans lying around. The hero one had 5 stars in no time with all his kills. Was lucky enough to get the standard heroic with him. I think he had around 225 leadership and +30 standard with his lance Last game. He got smooshed by a Behemoth though. I was sad.