Are devils worth 7 blood each?

Huzurdaddi · #1 September 12th, 2004, 07:58 PM

I think that they are worth 7 blood gems a pop. I think that they are fantastic units. I actually think that 7 blood gems a pop just about the correct cost, not too high not too low, just right.

The problem is if that's the correct cost then why do soul contracts cost so little?

For the paltry price of 60 blood ( you *really* should be able to forge a hammer if you are going blood ) you get 1 per turn. That pays for itself in 9 turns. This is much faster than other income generating types of investments.

Clams take ( assuming alchemy from astral -> water ) 14 turns to pay themselves off.

Fever Fetishes take ( assuming closed loop via alchemy again ) take 20 turns ( but really people probably do not close loop these ).

Vampires pay off in ~ 14 turns.

It just seems like the price of contracts is a little too low. If the requirement was 6 Blood to make them the cost 125 slaves which means it would pay off in 14 turns almost exactly the same as other income streams.

I just don't see why these things are so inexpensive. I just won a game based on them and really they are quite powerful.

Thufir · #2 September 12th, 2004, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Huzurdaddi said:

I just don't see why these things are so inexpensive. I just won a game based on them and really they are quite powerful.

As a guy that's getting smacked around by devils pretty badly, I find that easy to believe. Although I don't know if the key to my opponents devil hordes is soul contracts (though I've been wondering about that).

Graeme Dice · #3 September 12th, 2004, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Huzurdaddi said:
The problem is if that's the correct cost then why do soul contracts cost so little?

60 slaves takes 10 turns to pay for itself. 10 turns is enough time to have your entire empire wiped out.

Huzurdaddi · #4 September 12th, 2004, 08:45 PM

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As a guy that's getting smacked around by devils pretty badly

I've been that guy a couple of times, LOL. So this time I wanted to be the guy on the other side. And yup it's not horribly hard. There is a small window, however, in which you can get stomped.

Quote:

Although I don't know if the key to my opponents devil hordes is soul contracts (though I've been wondering about that).

I doubt he is summoning them. They are quite difficult to summon in quanity, the casting requirements are quite high.

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60 slaves takes 10 turns to pay for itself.

Uhm, I think it's 9, like I posted.

Of course there is a window in which you can get busted. Like all investment stratgies. My question is why does this one take less time than all the others to pay off?

Kel · #5 September 12th, 2004, 08:46 PM

It's really not fair to assume a hammer on one side (and not even count its cost or design points on a pretender to get one) and alchemy conVersion loss on the other. Imo, the comparison is flawed at it's very base.

- Kel

Cohen · #6 September 12th, 2004, 10:02 PM

I believe it depends on your need.
If you're at peace and plan for a long term game, Soul Contract is better.

But the chance to get 10 devils in 2-3 rounds instead could be useful if you're in immediate need for them in battle.

Not to count the Soul Contract guy get horror marked, and is victim of horrors, that find him even if he's hiding.

The_Tauren13 · #7 September 12th, 2004, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Kel said:
Imo, the comparison is flawed at it's very base.

I couldnt agree more. I see no reason to take into account hammers, as that is a different story all together. I would say 11 turns payback for the soul contract. I also think that astral pearls are worth more than water gems, so taking into account alchemy for payback time is somewhat lame. If anything, the clams have 8 or 9 turn payback because of relative gem worth. Also, your vampire comparison is flawed in that you not only get the 1 vampire/turn, you get a powerful vampire lord.

baruk · #8 September 12th, 2004, 10:39 PM

If the comparison is "how long do they take to pay for themselves", soul contract loses as you cannot alchemise devils into blood slaves for a new soul contract.

Vampire lords may be more expensive than hammer forged soul contracts, though you may be lucky and find a summoning bonus site. Besides which, vampires are immortal, which is quite handy.

Thufir · #9 September 12th, 2004, 10:39 PM

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The_Tauren13 said:
...
I also think that astral pearls are worth more than water gems, so taking into account alchemy for payback time is somewhat lame. If anything, the clams have 8 or 9 turn payback because of relative gem worth.

The relative worth of astral vs. water is quite dependent on the nation, but IMO it's clear that for any clamhoarding nation (which is what we're talking about in this case), the water is worth more than the astral.

I expect that anybody that's doing clamhoarding (or at least doing it well) should be running a substantial surplus in astral, and doing a lot of alchemizing from astral to other types, never from non-astral to astral.

Huzurdaddi · #10 September 12th, 2004, 10:54 PM

Quote:

It's really not fair to assume a hammer on one side (and not even count its cost or design points on a pretender to get one) and alchemy conVersion loss on the other. Imo, the comparison is flawed at it's very base.

Uhm ... the hammers are assumed on both sides. Removing them does not change the ratios which is what this is all about. Soul contracts yeild an effective gem supply which is 150% greater ( given the input ) than the other sources.

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Not to count the Soul Contract guy get horror marked, and is victim of horrors, that find him even if he's hiding.

Do they? Not in any game I have played. In games I have played I somewhat commonly get the message "a horror attacked so and so" however I can not watch the battle ( "bad VCR" ) and when I check he is still alive. Perhaps someone has seen a Horror kill a scout with a soul contract before, but I have not.