OT- LOTR fan discussion thread - SPOILER WARNING

[Growltigger]

DONT READ THIS THREAD IF YOU HAVE NOT SEEN THE LOTR MOVIES, AND DONT WANT THEM RUINED FOR YOU

As a major Tolkien fan, whilst I thought the movie triology was fantastic, there were quite a few things which rankled with me as being ruinously omitted. Now I appreciate that movies never replicate the books, and that artistic license has to be given when producing the movies, but I wondered what the other Tolkienistas on the forum felt to be their biggest gripes, comments and/or criticisms with the movies!!

Mine (in no particular order of importance), are as follows:

1 missing out Tom Bombadil and the Barrow Downs in Fellowship;

2 Irish music being played in Hobbiton, when they were English (OK OK minor gripe I know)

3 Elves turning up at Helms Deep!!

4 Completely underplaying Faramir, he is one of the most noble and heroic characters in the book, and that suicide charge in ROTK was bloody silly;

[Will]

While I would have liked to see Tom Bombadil, I realize that it isn't really necessary to the story. Same goes for replacing Glorfindel with Arwen, taking Frodo to Rivendell. They're extra characters that don't end up doing anything for the rest of the story.

For Two Towers, yeah, Elves showing up at Helms Deep was a little off, but it helped illustrate Galadriel's confidence in Aragorn and Men, as opposed to Elrond's skepticism. Elrond is finally convinced in Return, and is starting to be convinced in Two Towers. In Fellowship, he was certain that Middle Earth would fall to darkness, and was only concerned with getting the Elves out.

Faramir gets a little more depth in the extended edition Two Towers, showing that all he wants is a little praise from Denethor, but never gets it. Not exactly how I remember things in the book, but it better explains the suicide rush. Also, Faramir is described as a Captain loved by all the soldiers of Gondor, but I haven't really seen that in any of the movies.

One thing I wish was included (and it wouldn't have been very long, either), is showing Wormtongue hurling the palantír at Gandalf, et al. Instead, Pippin just finds it in the water.

Also, maybe it's just because I read the books, and know that Éowyn and Faramir end up marrying... but it seems like they're "together" at Aragorn's crowning ceremony, but no explanation is ever given in the movie. I'll have to see if anyone who hasn't read the books noticed the same thing.

Otherwise, I think the movies were as faithful as they could possibly be to the books. Really, I'm just glad it was Merry and Éowyn who killed the Witch King

[narf poit chez BOOM]

2 Irish music being played in Hobbiton, when they were English (OK OK minor gripe I know)

well, there irish english. seriously, it fit them. minor comment.

4 Completely underplaying Faramir, he is one of the most noble and heroic characters in the book, and that suicide charge in ROTK was bloody silly;

bad Peter Jackson! wasn't there a suicide charge in the book? or am i getting confused again?

[Will]

Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
wasn't there a suicide charge in the book? or am i getting confused again?

Going over my copy of Return of the King, it looks like there was a desperation attack on Osgiliath. Although it doesn't read as much as a rout as it was portrayed as in the movie. It was more of an attack-and-fade, to slow the crossing and buy more time before the attack on Minas Tirith.

Oh, and this is my 500th post, and I get... absolutely nothing. 100 more...

[narf poit chez BOOM]

hey, one more post and you can start singing '99 pre-Posts to go'.

[ January 07, 2004, 09:51: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ]

[Atrocities]

Over all how close would you all say the "extended" Versions of the movies are to the books?

Remember now that ROTK's extend Version will be close to or over five house long.

(NOTE: I would wait to buy the special 3 set DVD edition that will have an additional few hours of material for the first two movies.)

[Growltigger]

Will,

I agree with you about Glorfindel/Tom Bombadil. Although the Tolkien purist in me rankles at no mention of Glorfindel (he was an Elf Lord!), Liv Tyler is a rather attractive substitute, and I DID like the way that the role of Arwen was boosted in the film.

Elrond I think was unfairly treated. He never had the "Elves only" mentality in the book - he was a half-elf himself!! He was the great machinator of the ring-quest and for fighting for Middle Earth. I didn't like the way he was portrayed in the film, nor the way that Arwen seemed to bounce between "shall I go mortal/shan't I?".

I have seen the extended edition of Two Towers and think that Faramir was still woefully underplayed. He was the Captain best loved by the Gondor armies, and his defence of Osgiliath, the Rammas Echor and the Retreat over the Pelennor Fields (before being shot by a Nazgul arrow) were brilliant. The movie missed out on this point for me. It would have been rather nice to make more of the love affair and marriage between Faramir and Eowyn, as they were both heroic.

The Saruman scenes were cut from the ROTK, and I do wonder whether the extended Version will show the dialogue between Aragorn/Gandalf/Saruman at Isengard where Wormtongue yaks the palantir at Gandalf.

Agree with you about the witch king. I just loved the lines "Feast on his Flesh" soon followed by "No man may kill me, I am not a man, I am a woman" - whop!! marvellous.

The other thing the traditionalist in me would liek to have seen was the army of the dead being used to wipe out the corsairs of umbar, the ships being loaded with the armies of Southern Gondor (as per the book), and Aragorn leading these to the Pelennor, so that it was a victory of men.

They should also have played up the bit where Aragorn and Eomer meet up after fighting through the armies of Mordor. Would have made a great movie moment IMHO.

Narf/Will, there wasn't a suicide charge in the book, unless you count the plan for the Battle of the Morannon at the end, which could have been classed as a suicide attempt given that they were hoping to distract Sauron from the hobbits!! THe action at Osgiliath was Faramir taking his rangers to reinforce the garrison, it was never inteded that it could hold, simply to do as much damage to the orcs when they attacked osgiliath as possible and then retreat to the rammas echor. Denethor actually says that the rammas echor (the curtain wall round the Pelennor Fields) should be defended - Osgiliath was a forlorn hope

Atrocities, the extended movies are a bit more like the books, but still not 100%, more like 85% but what they do do if make the movies make more sense

[ January 07, 2004, 10:13: Message edited by: Growltigger ]

[narf poit chez BOOM]

The other thing the traditionalist in me would liek to have seen was the army of the dead being used to wipe out the corsairs of umbar, the ships being loaded with the armies of Southern Gondor (as per the book), and Aragorn leading these to the Pelennor, so that it was a victory of men.

someone else said the mountain armies wheren't undead; i can't remember.

(NOTE: I would wait to buy the special 3 set DVD edition that will have an additional few hours of material for the first two movies.)

so, when they release the extended Versions as a complete set, they'll be even longer? when'll they be out, though?

[Growltigger]

Narf, there were no mountain armies in the LOTR. I suppose the nearest thing to it would be the dwarfs of the Lonely Mountain. You dont hear much about them (other than Gloin at Elrond's Council and Balin's tomb in Moria) other than a mention that Sauron sent an army of Easterlings to attack Esgaroth, Dale and the Lonely Mountain and that King Brand of Dale (son of Bain son of Bard the bowman who killed Smaug) and Dain Ironfoot died fighting them.

The Dead lived under the White Mountains and like the movie, owed Aragorn an oath of fealty. He used them to kill the Corsairs of Umbar. They were not undead, but were ghosts (obviously with the power to kill people)

In the book, Minas Tirith was undermanned because the rest of Gondor could only send 3000-4000 men to help, and were keeping most of their forces back to combat the Corsairs. Once these were eliminated, Aragorn could marshall 30,000 odd Gondorean solidiers, stick them in the boats and sale these up to the Pelennor as late reinforcements, and it was these that really knackered up Mordor's troops, as they were getting on top of the men of the city and the rohirrim

[ January 07, 2004, 10:31: Message edited by: Growltigger ]

[dogscoff]

Barrow downs...

Yeah, they should have kept that.

Tom Bombadil

Nope, glad to see the back of him.

Elves turning up at Helms Deep!!

I thought this was in the books. Guess I have to re read.

but it seems like they're "together" at Aragorn's crowning ceremony, but no explanation is ever given in the movie.

I reckon the enhanced extended DVD might go into a little more detail here.

Irish music being played in Hobbiton, when they were English (OK OK minor gripe I know)

They're not Irish or English, they're Shirish.

used to wipe out the corsairs of umbar, the ships being loaded with the armies of Southern Gondor (as per the book), and Aragorn leading these to the Pelenno

Again, wait for the DVD. It's bound to be in there, IMHO.

(NOTE: I would wait to buy the special 3 set DVD edition that will have an additional few hours of material for the first two movies.)
...
so, when they release the extended Versions as a complete set, they'll be even longer? when'll they be out, though?

Oh if that is true then it is the biggest rip off ever. It's bad enough that they release the cinema-Version DVD in september for all those poor saps too impatient to wait until the extended one in december. To make us buy the same damn films all over again on the release of the third film is just criminal.

Elrond I think was unfairly treated. He never had the "Elves only" mentality in the book

Yeah, that seems like a fair comment. I'm also not entirely happy about the way Saruman became a slave of Sauron rather than a comeptitor for the ring's power.