LA Atlantis, another thread looking for tips

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

So... I won't be writing a strategy guide about them, but being the first water nation I tried, they're quite a bit different than I expected, and they're different from the other water nations in that they start on land.

People have been great at answering my questions, but there were enough I had I thought I should try making a single thread. I also hope that I'll be able to help someone rather than asking all the questions.

So, first off... I get a whole other set of recruits when I build a sea fortress. Is this unique to Atlantis, and why do I want to recruit them, other than the lower resource cost?

Someone mentioned Ghost Grip, and it looks like it could be quite good for my Tungalik's to cast, especially since I'll be using various other methods to increase fatigue. But I'm not certain how it really works. It says it affects multiple squares, but it has an AoE of 0, and 5 NoE.

What suggestions do you have with regards to using Tungaliks?

When experimenting with the Ice Pebble Staff, I found I've really been underestimating the value of Numbness. So, I'm thinking I need to seriously reconsider and try out some of the less sexy combat spells. I can do quite a bit with fatigue, it seems.

So I'm looking for advice on spells my Tungaliks can cast, with especial attention to ones available early enough to help with my expansion.

How many Tungaliks do I need casting Frighten or Slime (which BTW has four effects in CB mod, though I'm looking for vanilla dom3) to see any worthwhile results, when facing standard indies?

That's enough for the moment, I'd love to see a discussion start thats not just my questions.

Construction is a rather sad path for Atlantis, but I will say say not to underestimate the Ice Pebble Staff, which casts Numbness, and is available at construction 2. It's too expensive to build many, but I always try to get at least one out, and hand to a Captain, who I set to cast spells. It's no substitute for real mage support in the great battles, but can make a big difference in your smaller battles. I think it actually does more than listed in the manual. I'll do a couple labs tonight.

[sum1lost]

Wolven winter battlesites just before they become battle sites.

[SelfishGene]

From what i've seen of LA Atlantis, it seems getting lots of death gems, having a good Death magic Pretender, and having lots of Productivity and Magic scales are pretty much essential elements to making LA Atlantis work. They are definately a weaker nation out of the box, and are always going to have something of a hard time.

I'd say Atlantis' viability is very much dependent on whether R'yleh or Ermor is in the game. Now, if you're supremely lucky and start near Ermor you have a real chance, because Ermor is extremely weak to massed Priests at the start, and you NEED Death gems, and Ermor's capital is Death gem paradise. Later on Ermor can compete with you in the water, though.

Atlantis vs. Ryleh is the lynchpin though, and if Ryleh is in the game (imo) you're pretty much screwed. Basically Atlantis' strategic flexibility contests with it's tactical inflexibility and it's dreadfully linear unit line. Atlantis is a fully amphibious empire that can build forts and temples underwater easily, can cross bodies of water easily, and can use sailing to move along and across coastlines easily. But even so, Atlantis' fewer, more expensive units will get totally trashed by Ryleh's huge hordes of mindless chaff and mindblasting Illithids, pushing you totally out of the water. Without being able to use your amphibious capacity, you're stuck up an iceberg without an igloo.

I haven't found much use for Tungaliks, which are a very inefficient unit. However Atlantis does have easy access to path boosting items with a little research. Tungaliks with Skull Staff = Raise Dead. Water bracelet = several water spells.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Do chill effects still work under water? How useful are Mound Fiends? If you can take out the chaff, you can get your own, from all the dead. Fortunately, while I may speculate, I don't have to face R'lyeh.

[Forrest]

I am going to say the obvious.

Expand.

Buy cheap indie fluff to fill out your ranks. They can be amassed quick and can do the job in great enough numbers. They break quick so having back up indie commanders waiting to pick up the cowards is important. The up side to this is that their losses can be low. Multi waves can wear down strong provinces.

Get the scouts out.

Jumping Ryleh quick is great gain if you can get to their capitol before they know what is happening.

Ench 5 friendly currents.

Con 6 bottles of living water. If you plan for it you can build around this. Five or ten of these can be very nice. Water elementals that get killed every battle and are there for the next.

[SelfishGene]

Atlantis' recruitable units from underwater forts are the most dissapointing part of the nation, imo. After being pushed out of the water you'd think that they would have colonists that were gung-ho and militant about returning; in other words, units with good morale and reasonable combat ability.

What Atlantis gets is a 80 gold 1-holy Priest, a totally average 10 morale medium infantry that is just marginally better than indie chaff, and no recruitable mages. It's like they are fighting the war of their races' lives, only to come home to glorious mediocrity.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

How 'bout the burden of time. Not much point againt R'lyeh, since they've taken some Atlantians as slaves, but your troops have an old age of 500, and thanks to R'lyeh in era's past, you don't have anyone left alive from that generation.

So, if you get that up, you won't see the effects for hundreds of turns, and Abyssia... Well, let's just say that if they aren't waging war already, they will be soon. You probably could make a temporary alliance between you and Ermor though. They'll benefit from Utterdark much more than you, but you'll see some benefits too, and the Burden of Time isn't much of one.

What kind of results have you seen the cold climate have on ice weapons and armor?

I've seen my Snow Warriors get a +2, though I haven't experimented enough to see the full range.

[SelfishGene]

Utterdark or BoT are both fairly rational choices for LA Atlantis to make. Of course both are going to hurt you fairly badly as well, so best not to employ them until you've reached a tipping point and need a big push to win. The problem with Utterdark is that it will make it nearly impossible to recruit new troops even though your troops will be doing fine in combat otherwise (be wary of course of Ermor, Agartha, ect). BoT does seem like a good choice to squash human nations though.

I think it's +2 armor per cold level. 3-Cold Ice infantry hit i think 23 armor. The short sword armed Ice Warriors are quite adept little buggers, but like Caelum are very resource expensive, and are also quite slow. LA Atlantis' troops just beg for some Quickness love.

[Endoperez]

LA Agartha is all humans, and their good mages are often old (although their Death magic usually keeps them from suffering too badly from normal old age).

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Do the weapons get any better in the cold, or do I just have to settle for them being magic?