OT- Anyone read Old man's war?

[Randallw]

I found a good book the other day, Old Man's war by John Scalzi. Reminiscent of Starship Troopers and The Forever War. I wondered if anyone else had read it. I particularly like it because, putting aside Drakes Equation, it deals with all the aliens as I believe is necessary. We aren't going into space to make friends, and neither are they, we need to take what we can for the good of humanity.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Ah, yes, the 'shoot them before they shoot you' theory. Amazing how well that works.

Almost self-fullfilling.

[mac5732]

I think I read that a long time ago, sounds familiar, but not sure

[Randallw]

In this case it's shoot them before they eat you. I think there are at least 3 races mentioned that have a taste for humans.

Along with ignoring the Drake equation, as I said, it also avoids mention of the the difference in proteins.

One bloke, an ex-diplomat, thinks wouldn't it be better to talk and negotiate rather than resort to violence. He gets killed by 10,000 alien choral singers. During training one recruit says he feels sorry for the enemy. The sergeant hits him in the face with his own weapon and says these are aliens not humans, he doesn't want to hear any nonsense about feeling sorry for them.

Ex-military from earth get singled out because they have to learn they're not fighting other humans. These are aliens.

It's only from last year, so not too old.

[mrscrogg]

His next two books are out already and both pretty good - keeps you interested

[Suicide Junkie]

Along with ignoring the Drake equation, as I said, it also avoids mention of the the difference in proteins.

That's what makes it so popular!
You can eat all you like, but since the food can't be processed, it works better than a diet.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Let's look at this logically.

I have no desire to eat an alien. No sane human being has a desire to eat an alien.

Human beings are aliens. Just ask any alien.

Therefore, why the dealing with aliens as if they are raving menaces?

Because human brains can only deal with so many people. The more people we have to deal with, the less data storage we have to define them.

So, our family has pages and pages of data. Our friends, also pages.

That jerk who cut us off in traffic? One line, and you just read it.

So of course we yell at him. Everything we know about him says that he's an idiot...And he's not as 'real' to us as people we actually know. At best, he's a blurred face and a vehicle.

This is also the basis of racism. Iraqis. Iranians. Blacks. Jews. Whites. The farther people are away from us, the easier it is to catogorize them as 'them'.

And, of course, aliens aren't real people. After all, real people...Are just like us.

Fortunatly, we have the ability to be better than our 'natural man'.

For one thing, we can expand our definition of 'people'.

[Randallw]

I can see what you mean Narf, and believe me I despise discrimination, between huamns. The idea that just because someone is different or even has different skin makes them worth less is absurd. Any human being can kill another, it doesn't matter what colour their skin is, but I am opposed to the idea that aliens are somehow like us but in a different body. A lot of this conjecture is distracting since we don't even know if aliens exist, but if they do exist I feel it would be a giant mistake to treat them as "human". A Lion and a zebra are both animals but does this stop the Lion eating the Zebra. No, because the Lion needs to eat to live. In its mind the Zebra exists only to further its own existance. Aliens would be alien, not only in body but mind. Short of Humans having been seeded by ancients aliens won't be human. Who will be able to tell what they will think or plan. Our repsonsibility is to advance mankind, not only through putting aside our divisions, after all we are all humans, we can feel emotions for each other, but by ensuring the continuation of the species by acting in our best interests. Animals here on earth are useful because we share proteins. we can use them to fuel ourselves. Animals we don't eat we can relate to because they share a common origin, 1 head, 4 limbs. But aliens offer us no benefits or familiarity, they are a threat. Consider the long term. If we go out into space and meet another race what will we do?. Will we agree not to expand beacuse it might lead to conflict. The result of that is in a few thousand years we are stuck on earth starving because we used up all the resources, or stagnant because we do not wish to grow and use more resources, and meanwhile the aliens have followed their own agenda and one day the human race discovers the aliens have an overwhelming advantage and then for their own "alien" reasons they decide they don't like humans being around. Why shouldn't they destroy us, they owe us nothing, we aren't them. That probe that got sent out with a greeting from humanity to aliens and an illustration of us saying hello. That has to be the stupidest thing we ever did. If somehow aliens do find it, and this is applying human thinking so granted alien minds might be different, but are you willing to risk humanity on it, what might the aliens do. "oh look there's this primitive oxygen breathing race where this probe came from. Let's exterminate them so they don't pose a threat in a million years"

Let me use a final analogy. Let's compare Humanity going out into the stars and possibly meeting aliens. I say compare it to a man swimming out into the ocean (and yes I know I am slipping into a Robert Heinlen example). He finds himself surrounded on all sides by water. If he get's tired he might drown. The water doesn't care what happens to him. Meanwhile sharks are swimming around. They aren't going to think "oh look a fellow traveller in the ocean. Let's be friends" no, they will eat him because the only thing he offers is food.

I realise my arguments revolve around meeting a race at the same level as us, and that's highly unlikely. They might be so high above us we are literally ants compared to them. You don't watch what you do for the sake of ants (unless you're a jain). You step on them and never notice. The roles might be reversed. We discover aliens less developed then us. What should humanity care for them?. They're not cute little fellow apes. Leave them alone, someday they will evolve and then they might be a threat. Why put it off. Exterminate them at once and maybe we might even be able to gain resources for ourselves.

I don't consider myself some crackpot. I don't believe in flying saucers, area 52, or aliens controlling the government. That's x-files sci-fi genre staple. I am a realist, and to me what makes sense is that aliens, if they exist, pose nothing but a threat to humanity. You know what the US government plans to do if they meet aliens, hmm. Not say hello and take it to their leader. They will whisk it away to a bio-hazard lab because it might be dangerous.

In my defence. This does not indicate bigotry on my part. It is not hatred of other people. It is the opposite. It is love of humanity. Doing what is in the best interests of all people. Aliens are not people.

whew. I'm tired. I'm off to bed

[President_Elect_Shang]

Before I break into my questions let me say I agree with you completely. I didn't get my degree in Anthropology because it was a soft degree. It may be and I won't argue that; I got it because I love humans. Point blank! I love the things we build, the mistakes we make, the joys we share. I love to understand why we want to walk across the grass when there is a perfectly smooth concrete walkway. And I have tolerated my share of bigotry. Twelve years of being married to a black woman has made for some very *ahem* interesting moments. Anyway now that I have made that clear I have to ask (it's the Anthro guy in me):

Being human means extending our understanding; and yes even our emotions, to other creatures. For example the love we feel a pet. Does your cat really feel love or are you extending your love onto it? So if part of being a human is that ability to extend wouldn't your ideas be anti-human? Don't extend human understanding to the aliens just wipe them out right now. The lions and the sharks pose a threat to us. People are injured by how many shark attacks per year? More than one? Why don't we wipe out the sharks? They have no resemblance to humans and saying they share a common origin hasn't stopped us before. What about the other hominids we may have wiped out? All the Mega Fauna which may have been in decline but clearly dropped off after modern humans arrived. As humans shouldn't we at least try to extend one hand in peace even if we are keeping the other on "the button"? Otherwise won't we become the very aliens you speak of exterminating?

[Atrocities]

narf poit chez BOOM said:
Ah, yes, the 'shoot them before they shoot you' theory. Amazing how well that works.

Almost self-fullfilling.

Otherwise known as gun boat diplomacy.