Newbie's first impressions

[PCarroll]

After getting lots of recommendations at comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic, I finally broke down and bought Dom2. I had played the demo several months ago but was pretty well turned off by it. Yet--there's this huge fan base, and so I figured there must be more to the game than meets the eye.

Well, it installed cleanly, and I like the fact that you don't have to have the CD in the drive to play. But startup is amazingly non-intuitive! It's as if the designer wanted to make sure only the initiated would be able to play.

But, thanks to the "Walkthru" I downloaded, and a willingness to learn by trial and error, I managed to play fifty turns or so of a game.

I must say, Dom2 is about the strangest game I've ever played. Not because of its theme or overall structure; in that respect it's just an ordinary fantasy-themed conquer-the-world game. It's strange because on the surface it looks like almost nothing ever happens. Whereas most games these days go to great lengths to impress the player with dazzling eye and ear candy, Dom2 looks about as plain as a game can be.

But from what I hear, there's a lot beneath the surface. Unfortunately, it looks like it's going to take a good deal of time and effort to delve into those depths.

I suppose I should start by reading the manual. I haven't done that yet; I just followed the "walkthru" and then experimented on my own from there.

The thing is, I've already forgotten half of what I learned during the walkthru. Once I set out on my own, I immediately lost track of what kind of research was being done back in my home province; where my income was coming from; where new units could be recruited; what gems have to do with spells; and everything else except movement and combat.

Before long, there were enemies everywhere, closing in on me. The battles that had been so easy during the walkthru were now so tough that I kept losing turn after turn.

I found an enemy (Ulm) fortress and decided to send my big armies there, in hopes of at least taking out one of the enemies. But it turns out I didn't know how to do that, so I left my armies there for ten or fifteen turns, just besieging and waiting for the fortress to fall. Finally, after shutting the game down in frustration, I flipped through the manual and was reminded that you have to change the commanders' orders. So this morning I loaded the game and reset the commanders' orders to "Storm the Fortress" (the gate had been smashed ten or twelve turns before), and took over immediately.

Actually, it was kinda cool being able to change the commanders' orders like that. It's a simple mechanism and fits with the player being in a position of making high-level decisions.

That indirect control over commanders and battles feels pretty weird, though, after years of playing games where I had *direct* control over tactical battles. It's funny: when I first encounted that kind of game (which I called "split-focus games" because the player has to keep switching between the strategic and tactical dimensions), I hated it. But now that I'm so used to it, it's hard going back to a game where the player *doesn't* have direct control over the minutia of tactical combat.

And yet--as I was flipping through the manual, I kept coming across nitty-gritty details and wondering how in the world they could possibly come into play. One section is telling how long weapons have an initial advantage over short ones--and I'm thinking, "Yeah, but once a battle starts, arming the troops is already a done deal, so. . . ."

I guess that kind of detailed info helps when deciding what kind of army to build when you're up against a cavalry-dominant enemy or whatever. But as a rank beginner, I've just been building armies wherever I can find them, out of whatever kinds of troops are affordable and strike my fancy.

Another thing I find strange is the lack of diplomacy; it's a multiplayer free-for-all with no alliances. That's annoying enough that I may stick to two-player games for a while. Last night I felt hopelessly ganged up on. In games with alliances, at least I've got some friends to counter the gangs of enemies.

Besides all the behind-the-scenes stuff (the economic and magical dimensions), the most annoying thing about Dom2 so far is the difficulty of establishing defensible borders. In my trial game, provinces changed hands the way they do in Risk; and that got old in a hurry. Nothing is more frustrating than making a successful attack, only to find that the enemy has meanwhile snuck in and taken over a couple lightly defended or undefended provinces behind your armies. That situation soon starts to seem hopeless.

Evidently--judging from all the posts in this forum and elsewhere--there's a LOT more to Dom2 than meets the eye. I'm just hoping I discover some of it before I shrug the game off as too plain-looking and frustrating.

[YellowCactus]

Well.
Yea. There is a whole lot to Dominions. The Multi-player is really keen. This is a 'grand strategy' game. By playing a turn each day in multi-player games, campaigns can last a real life month or longer. Entire games can last half a year or so. Dominions is certainly not about instant gratification for your dicisions. I like coming home from work to check out the 'new turn' in my current Dominions game. New turns rarely happen though because Aku is such a slacker. **Jab-Jab**
Anyway, Good luck with Dominions.
-yc

[Endoperez]

What was the level of independents? The default is pretty low, playing with level 6 gives you much more time to get
ready for the enemy, and slows the AI down more than it does you.

The national units are just the beginning. Research and magic is where the true depth is, as well as the diversity of nations and magic paths. And if you get to like the game, you can start choosing from the nations and spells and items and creatures, and play the game your way. To get to that point, well... the manual is mostly just listing all the spells and the items. Quickly look through the index, and check those that sound interesting (like Vision's Foe, eye-eating crossbow, or Blade Wind, that fires 52+ low-damage missiles in one casting). Remember that a + after a number (damage, Area of Effect, etc) means the power grows with better mage. Thus Falling Frost (AoE: 5+ and damage: 17+) will be a monster if cast by a mage with Water 6, which is not too hard to get. Choosing what to research can be quite hard in the beginning, so just research Evocation, mainly consisting of different combat spells. It suits any nation with elemental mages, and quite a few others. Other options could be Conjuration for summoning, Enchantment for raising the dead, or Thaumaturgy for Astral mages, with Paralyze and Mind Burn. Preferably you can then have your cheaper mages cast something offensive, like Fireball (Evoc. 3, Fire 2), Magma Bolts (Evoc. 3, Earth 1 Fire 1) or Mind Burn (Thaum. 2, Astral 2).

Defending your area can be quite hard. Buy some Province Defence, but not much. Few points are enough. On provinces next to enemy border, buy 11 points of pd. This will discourage your enemy from attacking your provinces, as there are some defenders there.

If you were to try with other nation, try Abysia. They have pretty strong starting units, get extra points by taking Heat 3, and start with pretty good Fire-based attack spell, Flare, researched. Abysia has no archers, but if you pretender has at least Fire 4 and more than 15 hitpoints, he can be used to scorch early independents.

[Molog]

Dominions 2 is a pretty fun game, but it might not be to your taste.

[PCarroll]

"What was the level of independents?"

Don't know. I was playing the special Walkthru scenario I downloaded, so everything was preset, and I didn't check the details.

[PCarroll]

Molog said:
Dominions 2 is a pretty fun game, but it might not be to your taste.

Time will tell. So far I'm scratching my head, wondering why so many others seem to find it such fun.

But I guess it takes all kinds. Railroad Tycoon is a big hit, and I once bought a copy just to see what all the fuss was about. But it didn't work; I still don't know. I've never liked trains or investing, so as far as I'm concerned, the game sucks. (It has some good music, though.)

I'm no fantasy-fiction buff, but I am a longtime wargamer (started in 1968). So Dom2 has some of what I like. But it probably won't be to my taste if it's too heavy on the economic or research dimensions. When I play a wargame, I'm in it for the war.

--Patrick

[Zooko]

I think the main appeal is multi-player, turn-based.

Lots of people like playing it single-player, apparently, but in my opinion there are better games for single-player. However, there are no better games (as far as I know) for multi-player, turn-based. :-)

Maybe you should jump into a multiplayer newbie game head-first.

[Molog]

If he can't win against the AI he will just be wasting people's time.

Perhaps read an aar to get an idea how to play, see aar thread

[quantum_mechani]

Molog said:
If he can't win against the AI he will just be wasting people's time.
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...unless he plays with other newbies. Even with more expirienced games, most people don't mind newbies as long as they keep with the pace and don't drop out.

[Bummer_Duck]

Zooko said:
I think the main appeal is multi-player, turn-based.

More to the point, IMO, it is the indepth strategy, vs reaction time with a keyboard and mouse.

However, there are no better games (as far as I know) for multi-player, turn-based. :-)

Depends on what part you are talking about. There are a few out there that are close, and some with 'better' peices. I'd say Dom II is better in some important ways, but not everything.

Look at Stars!, and take into account that it was created (as far as I can determine) 7 years before Dom I and still has alot of GUI features that make Dom II seem clunky. I'll also point out that Stars! was created mainly by 2 programmers, not a big company.