Super snipers???

Artur · #1 October 4th, 2005, 06:39 PM

Gentlemen,

I suppose this was an issue in the earlier versions, but I have the impression that snipers perform much better in this game that they would in RL. And you can buy an effective sniper for 7 points! Your thoughts about this?

On the other hand I find that the MGs could be a bit more lethal than they are now (a'la H2H who knows trhat version of SP). The suppression range is greater but I rather not use neighbouring splash effect with MGs but rather would make them a bit more lethal. Your thoughts?

Artur.

Busko · #2 October 5th, 2005, 03:50 AM

I think it's not so unusual to have that effectiveness in Snipers. Imagine a man, alone, undetected, with all the time to aim and shoot at the easiest target of an infantry squad...

On the other side i agree, sometimes i have the feeling that MGs are a bit "underpowered".

desh44 · #3 October 5th, 2005, 04:33 AM

Artur I think the way snipers in the game should operate is that they should have fewer shots(say only 1 or 2) but they should have very good accuracy and supressive value with them. Considering the scale of the game a sniper would take a shot and then relocate so as to stay concealed. With the game being about 5 minutes a turn 2 shots would be a lot for a sniper.
As far as MG's go I think they are deadly enough...I have noticed that with this latest version they have good range and supressive value but the biggest thing is that they are hard to spot. In many of the scenarios when my troops come under long range fire I am not able to spot the firing position of the MG. The same goes for AT missles. You get hit and only get the direction the shot came from. As far as snipers go I have had them in scenarios where I have taken 3 or more shots at a unit before being able to do anything with them.
Tom

PlasmaKrab · #4 October 5th, 2005, 07:50 AM

As far as snipers go, remember that someone with a "sniper rifle" weapon can be just as well your elite commando sniper, like Tom described, crawling slowly on unsuspected approach roads and taking one or two lethal shots before vanishing.

Now on the other hand, it can just as well be a low-level 'force-integral' marksman who runs along the troops and just provides a better pinpoint accuracy in one shot, commonly picking off at just every enemy, acting as yet another support weapon. As being closer to the front line he would have to shoot from closer ranges, and possibly engage alot more objectives in a short time, thus appearing (in a turn-based game) as blazing away mindlessly. You can see such guys in Soviet motor rifle platoons or in US mechanized sections (designated marksman).

Agreed, that still means that you could give your average 'high-rate' sniper somewhat less shots (lower ROF), maybe lower speed, but a terrific accuracy.
Just be careful to what kind of sniper you consider, as both types are often mixed in the same class.

Siddhi · #5 October 5th, 2005, 10:23 AM

i agree with plasmakrab, there is considerble difference betweeen a marksman and a sniper. the austrian army for instance has a very high purportion of marksman (there is a marksman assigned to every 'jaeger' platoon - sadly not covered in the current SP OOB) - sometimes even there is one in every squad. these however are not snipers, shooting afterall being only 1 of 6 different sniper skills.

i have seen some bizzare results however. in one scenario i did a 'heavy' sniper in a building effectivly halted and even routed 2 entire platoons of light infantry. this was prolly a 'searching' problem - sniper was too well hidden -but in RL the units would have fired blind at various targets anyway.

DRG · #6 October 5th, 2005, 02:40 PM

There are numerous examples I have read over the years of a small handful of "snipers" holding up entire companies ( or even large formations )in NW Europe in the last year(s) of WW2. Troops don't like being sniped at by unseen enemies and hearing a shot then a call for a medic then another shot and another call for a medic can and has caused advances to grind to a halt. I know that in the game *sometimes* dealing with snipers is a PITA. Sometimes in RL they are.

Don

narwan · #7 October 5th, 2005, 02:56 PM

I recall an gurkha trooper who got the VC for holding off close to a company of japanese infantry with his Lee Enfield, while being seriously wounded. He wasn't a 'sniper', just really good with his rifle and extremely brave. Many dozens of japanese became casualties of his accurate fire (and the handgrenades he kept throwing back at them). That was in the Imphal campaign in burma in '44 if I remember correctly. The japanese were dumb enough to keep trying a frontal attack on his elevated dug in position without much supportive fire.

Snipers in SP are tricky to deal with, but they only become unbalancing if used in unrealisiticly large quantities.
Don't just storm at them but supress them (or of you can't spot them, their hex) before closing in for the kill. Dropping off an infantry unit next to their hex usually reveals their presence if they fired off a couple of shots that turn. Rifles used at distance 4 or less have the best chance of taking out a sniper (at least that's the way it was in earlier versions and I assume it's still the same now).

Artur · #8 October 5th, 2005, 03:17 PM

I agree with the method of suppressing them. However I experienced that a foreign legion sniper performed well even if he was located in an open terrain hex and shot at by tanks many times. Is that realistic? I know French Foreign legion has very high morale and experience but isn't this too much?

I also agree about making more difference within the snipers. What I experienced is that even a 7 points marksman is more effective than a machine gun. Is that realistic? I really don't know...

Artur.

narwan · #9 October 5th, 2005, 08:25 PM

Tank main guns and mg's aren't all that effective against snipers so I'm not surprised. Open terrain still offers lot's of places for a single man to hide or find cover. It's not a completely flat field 50 metres across. And a 1-foot rise in terrain or obstacle of that height can give enough cover for one man. And a foreign legion sniper (or any superelite sniper) can be expected to know his hiding.

I don't like snipers because they are too powerful, I don't like them because it can get to be a drag taking them out. The occasional one in a game I don't mind, but not too many please.
I've rarely encountered an enemy sniper though doing his point cost worth of damage. But it takes an effort and certain techniques to take them out at low cost, hence the drag I mentioned cause these take time and can seriously slow down a game.

Narwan

Siddhi · #10 October 6th, 2005, 12:32 PM

reg. sniper stories, not only have i heard many of those too but i have been under sniper fire myself (bosnia bihac in 94) and have seen how in RL people react - basically firing in the general direction of the persumed sniper. in one particular case i was two streets away from bihac hospital, which got a lot of attention, close to an experienced BiH 2.Corps group when a couple of rounds started impacting off the sidewalk around them. the guys just started walking and shooting - from the shoulder btw - in a particular direction. after about a couple of mags a piece there didnt' seem to be any more incoming fire - although all the cordite in the air might have had something to do with it. when i asked what they were shooting at they pointed at low rise about .8k out of town, saying "well that's where i would be anyway". moral: experienced troops can deal with long-ranged snipers.

in game terms, the way to deal with unseen fire is to hit x and plaster the expected hex blindly - it would be nice (not, DRG, a must) - if the AI could do something differently. i often raise the searching ratings to compensate for this.