60mm Mortars

[scJazz]

Is there some issue with 60mm mortars or small caliber mortars in general? I've played a couple of scenarios where US 60mm mortars in the 1980s time frame never fired as artillery when controlled by AI. They just sat there and waited to be killed. Sorry no saves of this kind of event. It didn't occur to me that there might be a problem until long after I finished each of the scenarios in which this happened. Basically I've played 3 or 4 scenarios that included US Army 60mm mortar teams that never fired their mortars in anger. They just sat there. Even in scenarios where the US side was short on artillery.

Am I missing something? Wanted to ask before I went to the trouble of creating a test scenario.

Jazz

[DRG]

Good question. They should be firing as they are light mortars and not the direct fire variety 60mm. I'll look into it at some point and run some tests.

Don

[DRG]

QUESTION: Is this a problem you noticed while doing your work on the old Red Storm Rising campaign??

Don

[scJazz]

The 3rd time I noticed it happened during the 3rd scenario of Red Storm Rising (60mm mortar in SW corner of barracks area). I also noticed it in Camo distributed scenarios included in the CD release. At that point though it didn't occur to me that there might be a problem. I thought I just got lucky.

[Mobhack]

scJazz said:
Is there some issue with 60mm mortars or small caliber mortars in general? I've played a couple of scenarios where US 60mm mortars in the 1980s time frame never fired as artillery when controlled by AI. They just sat there and waited to be killed. Sorry no saves of this kind of event. It didn't occur to me that there might be a problem until long after I finished each of the scenarios in which this happened. Basically I've played 3 or 4 scenarios that included US Army 60mm mortar teams that never fired their mortars in anger. They just sat there. Even in scenarios where the US side was short on artillery.

Am I missing something? Wanted to ask before I went to the trouble of creating a test scenario.

Jazz

The rather short range of such items can be a problem, especially in mobile scenarios. When the AI is advancing, ranges may well get, or even start out of range from the start line. Large maps can be a problem, again because of the low range of the things.

I have had 60mm mortars fire at me under AI control, but usually you need to be within thier rather short range bracket, position be known to the AI, and have been there long enough. Chiefly that only really happens if you are advancing or assaulting the AI and are taking your time fighting through positions with the mini-mortars near enough to contribute.

How long were you inside the envelope of the short-legged little critters?

They are really only good for local defence, if the enemy is nice enough to wait around there long enough for the fire to arrive (so pretty much limited to a plotted gold spot FDF target smack in front of your coy defensive location really, just far enough out that fire will not drift too close to the defenders).

Real 81mm mortars are far superior to the 60mm toys. Mainly because of the range element, and the fact they may be useful in advance type scenarios, unless you want to invest in trucks or inch them forward a hex or so at a time for ever. The AI will usually not advance the things, of course.

Cheers
Andy

[scJazz]

Mobhack said:
<SNIP>
How long were you inside the envelope of the short-legged little critters?
<SNIP>

Cheers
Andy

During scenario 3 of Red Storm I was inside the firing envelope for around 5 turns. Enemy had reasonable visibility (damn american TI!!!) Perhaps you are right though Andy maybe it was a range/visibility/AI just didn't feel like it kind of thing. Makes sense.

Jazz

[scJazz]

Errrr... since we are talking about AI artillery anyway. Any chance of beefing up the AIs use of artillery? Giving it pre-plotted targets maybe a little guessing about where the player might be 2 - 4 turns from "now". Reminding it to beat up on tree lines and tops of hills?

And since I'm typing this part. Perhaps a new feature for artillery (wish list) the fire one shell only command? For zeroing in on the target and for anticipation of when the bad guys will be visible. Can also be used to harass the human player. Just a new icon in Bombardment menu which causes the firing tube(s) to lay out a single shell. Maybe the human player gets scared when it lands close to hidden (dug in) units and starts moving them never knowing if more shells are coming. Or for use on a spot where the enemy is certain to show up eventually.

Just a thought
Jazz

[Mobhack]

scJazz said:

During scenario 3 of Red Storm I was inside the firing envelope for around 5 turns. Enemy had reasonable visibility (damn american TI!!!) Perhaps you are right though Andy maybe it was a range/visibility/AI just didn't feel like it kind of thing. Makes sense.

Jazz

I set up a quik and dirty test scenario. 1980 or so (there is a gap in 60mm mortars in the USA) US vs palestinian advance.

All objectives in a block, buy 4 60mm mortar sections for the USA and a FO. Place the 60mm so the objective clump is in range, and the Op to spot. Plaestinians set up to advance rifle co over the objectives.

save scenario, and then start AI vs AI. USA AI plots a smoke mission, and then happily drops 60mm HE on the advancing palestinians. Palestinians trip over the FO, and slot it. USA AI 60mm fire dwindles..

If the AI has a target in range, and is aware of it, it will plot even toy 60mm mortars. But not of course, any it had decided to use to drop smoke screens as part of the advance covering mission. Not all were plotted - if the assignment routine plotted everything in range then the first valid target would get an "uncle target" from the AI every time. It evaluates and flips some dice to decide if it will fire on the particular target.

Cheers
Andy

[Mobhack]

scJazz said:
Errrr... since we are talking about AI artillery anyway. Any chance of beefing up the AIs use of artillery? Giving it pre-plotted targets maybe a little guessing about where the player might be 2 - 4 turns from "now". Reminding it to beat up on tree lines and tops of hills?

And since I'm typing this part. Perhaps a new feature for artillery (wish list) the fire one shell only command? For zeroing in on the target and for anticipation of when the bad guys will be visible. Can also be used to harass the human player. Just a new icon in Bombardment menu which causes the firing tube(s) to lay out a single shell. Maybe the human player gets scared when it lands close to hidden (dug in) units and starts moving them never knowing if more shells are coming. Or for use on a spot where the enemy is certain to show up eventually.

Just a thought
Jazz

predict ahead was tried and failed - the AI cannot track the vector, and can only use the prospective target's current speed and facing as clues. Easily fooled then b moving fast, and ensuring you face away from the gereral direction of travel. AI plotted a couple of turns at that speed, based on the facing, and happily fired off to where you had pointed the units. Also, it had no clue if you were say speeding towards a position and would dismount, so would predict ahead, into its own defence line. It has no idea of context..

It was found better to use the current x,y and to ignore speed, as before.
a) A human player will tend to be fighting from one position, may as well drop in that area
b) Hman players often advance in a column through the same area, so plotting onthe lead elements spotted, and some delay, often hits the following elements passing through the same localtion later on. (Inexperienced players call that a cheat, as in "hey I moved onto the ridgeline and the AI arty fell just there instantly - that Ai is cheating on me (wail)" - ignoring the recce element that passed over the same ridge (and was targeted) 2-3 turns back, and the fire is falling on that very spot

a) - move around, if you can or the arty will start to zero in
b) - do not move a stream of formations through the same corridor in "waves" or they may get presents deleivered courtesy of the initial elements passing through Dodge.

The AI arty code is too complex to allow "partial" shots. That sort of thing would need to be designed in from the ground up. If you need harrasing fires, move the predicted impact spot around till you get 0.4 delay, and you will get less shots fired usually. (MRL and mortars fire faster in indirect fire, tey get a ROF multiplier as these can chug the rounds out quickly cf normal guns).

Cheers
Andy

[scJazz]

Thanks Andy!