Are heavy bless strategies the best ones ?

[Eressil3]

I read this forum since more than a month, and most of the times pretender design is about bless strategy. Not simple ones but double ones like W9F9 or W9N9 or even with three kind of magic. So for a newbie like me, when I read this forum, it seems that these strategies are the best. I just hope I'm wrong because if the goal of the game is to get the bless friendly nations to win, it's just bad.

1- So, are heavy bless strategies the best ones ?
2- What are the succesful alternatives ? Can you give me examples ?

[Folket]

I find that heavy blesses are the best against the computer as the AI do not know how to counter. In large MP games I have seen bless strats fail more often then not. But then large Mp games are 60% diplomacy and 40% gameplay.

At the moment I'm strong in the Undertow game with a E3 wyrm. The other strong Pretender is Shinuyama, I do not know what he has but he does not use sacred troops.

I find that any strat will work if it allows you to exp fast (getting 2-3 provinces a turn before turn 10) in the beginning and allow you a broad spectrum of magic later on.

[Meglobob]

No, bless strategies are NOT the best ones, especially if you want to win a MP game. That's the short answer.

This is however dominions, so there is always a but.

Essentially, it entirely depends what nation you are playing, for example EA T'ien Ch'i is a nation whose main strength is strong magic in many different paths. So you only want a weak bless, if any, good scales and a SC awake pretender may be your best option. MA Man is better off with a awake SC pretender and good scales and so on...

However, Mictlan of all ages is very, very well suited by a high bless strategy, 2 lvl 9 blesses or even 3, however the bad scales will cost you later on in the game.

Essentially, individual nation, map size (provinces per player), magic site % and difficulty of magic research should all be carefully considered before designing your pretender and wether or not to go with a high bless.

There is mounting and strong evidence to suggest on maps of 15 provinces per player or higher, 50% magic sites and normal research anyone with a double lvl 9 bless or more is at a disadvantage to win in MP. They get dragged down by the culmative effect of bad scales like death-3, misfortune-3 and drain-3.

One final thing to consider in MP, is do you really want to win or do you just want abit of fun and hopefully get knocked out before turn 50 or so when the turns become horrendous to do, taking 2 hrs or more. This effects wether you wish to go with a heavy bless as well, since you can have a extremly fun game of having a double or triple bless, crushing 1 or 2 other players and then being crushed in turn yourself and all before turn 40!

[Micah]

For Undertow I went with scales and air/astral magic since Shin doesn't have access to them nationally...Imprisoned pretender since I was new and didn't realize how good SCs are for early expansion, likewise I took drain, which was a mistake. That being said I am SO glad I took those paths.

If I did it again I'd probably do something like an awake A4/S4/D1 ghost king with 5 dominion. Order 3, misfortune 2, magic 1, sloth 1, heat 1. Might blow another scale tip to pick up some earth magic for protection buffs and golem/coin forging later.

[Eressil3]

Thanx for your answers guys. This is the kind of answer, I wanted.

[Graeme Dice]

Meglobob said:
No, bless strategies are NOT the best ones, especially if you want to win a MP game. That's the short answer.

It's also the incorrect answer. If you want to get a massive early game advantage over every other player, then the only way to do that is to use a dual-bless strategy. Unlike Dominions II where national troops took about 20 turns to become obsolete, national troops are obsolete from the very first turn in Dominions III, as dual-blessed troops can win with a third (or less) of the gold cost spent on them.

Essentially, it entirely depends what nation you are playing, for example EA T'ien Ch'i is a nation whose main strength is strong magic in many different paths.

Their main strength before turn 20 is blessed warriors of the five elements. Before turn 20, which is when the eventual winner of the game is decided, magic plays virtually no role in Dom 3.

There is mounting and strong evidence to suggest on maps of 15 provinces per player or higher, 50% magic sites and normal research anyone with a double lvl 9 bless or more is at a disadvantage to win in MP.

You have evidence? I'd love to see it.

They get dragged down by the culmative effect of bad scales like death-3, misfortune-3 and drain-3.

This statement illustrates how little you understand about the game. Dual-blesses are not particularly expensive, and do not require large sacrifices to your scales. Niefelheim, for example, can have an E9N9 Cyclops with Dominion 7, order 3, cold 3, death 1, misfortune 2, and drain 2.

Death 3 has almost no effect whatsoever on your game, unless you are playing a weak nation like Abysia or Marignon that relies on fire mages. You will have lost 24% of your population in your home province by turn 50 with death 3, and less than that in other provinces where your dominion spent less time. If misfortune 3 is going to screw up your game, it will do so in the first five turns. After that, with a dual-bless strategy, you'll have so many provinces that the negative impact will be spread throughout your empire. Drain 3 is typically not needed for a dual-bless strategy, but if you do choose it over the no-brainer choice of drain 2, you can power through the penalty by spending extra gold on mages.

[jutetrea]

on a purely personal note, I dislike bless strategies. I enjoy well rounded way more.

I generally play SP (so far I suck at my first 2 MP games . My fav so far is Tien Chi with a rainbow pretender and luck scales - full magic access (although I'll take a couple slots of blood I only use it late game for a few items when I can take the time out to hunt).

Enjoyment > optimization in SP for me

[CharonJr]

IMO it depends on the nation you are playing.

Essentially that means yes for some (as has been said, I can not even start to think about EA Mictlan without at least a dual bless) and no for others.

If a nation has good sacred troops most of the time they should be way better with a decent bless in the short run than with better scales.

In MP games with "graphs on" this will most likely paint a big bulleye on them...

In games without graphs it will more depend on "normal" diplomacy.

But overall those nations DO have an advantage IMO even in fairly large/long games unless they get ganged up upon. You should be able to preserve enough of your early game advantage into the mid-/endgame despite slightly worse scales.

CharonJr

[calmon]

Graeme Dice said:

It's also the incorrect answer. If you want to get a massive early game advantage over every other player, then the only way to do that is to use a dual-bless strategy. Unlike Dominions II where national troops took about 20 turns to become obsolete, national troops are obsolete from the very first turn in Dominions III, as dual-blessed troops can win with a third (or less) of the gold cost spent on them.

[/quote]

I can agree that a bless strategy can win a game if used by a good player.

But i disagree that this is the only way to get an early game advantage. Building an awe/fear pretender helps a lot to expand from start on, too. You could combine him with a single bless 9 if you want.
The advantage of such a strategy is that you are not forced to use most of your money for sacred troops every turn and normally have better scales than a double bless. You can expand and have gold left for building castles very early.

I wouldn't say national troops are obsolete even by turn 20. What are the alternatives?

However for me its also no question that vanheim/helheim with glamour on sacreds needs some nerf. This in combination with double bless, a good player and neighbours who don't alliance against such a nation will be a powerfull threat for winning the game.

[Eressil3]

I forgot to specify the question is MP games related. And I appreciate to see the debate growing and to read a variety of opinions.