Polish and Bulgarian OOBs

[SaS TrooP]

OK, there were some strange changes since 6.0 version of the game. I will point them out and give few suggestions:

POLAND:
1. What happened to PT-91 Twardy tank (formation eg. 71, Unit 21 and 711)? Its power was dramatically decreased. Can get the info where you found actual (current) armor data and - first of all - the efficiency of the main gun? My knowledge about SABOT ammunition is very low, but let me quote polish source:

In use are rounds 3WBM3, 3WBM6, 3WBM7, 3WBM8 (AP, SABOT, cored with core manufactured from cemented carbide), Ryś (AP/SABOT, cored with wolfram core), 3WBK7, 3WBK10 (HEAT) i 3WOF22 (HE-Frag). All types of rounds fired from 2A46 are stabilized by [hard to translate, literally... stabilizer, part characteristic for airplanes, at tail].

Hope this helps somehow.

Then, front and side armor is laminated, rest is standard composite one. Additional steel side screens can be attached. ERAWA ERA has ability to reflect radar scanning what makes that tank harder to be spotted. I cant say much for Drawa FCS, can do deeper research if you like!

Idea: Units 21 and 711 should have both steel and anti-HEAT armor pretty much increased. Their gun (weapon 161) SABOT ammunition should be ore efficient. Should I do greater research and propose the numbers here?

2. I know that BWP-1 is the only IFV for tracked infantry, but any chance for bringing back test equipment, especially Puma variant? Could be added like for 2015+ only with low AI chance of buying it.
Idea: Bring Unit 999 (BWP-1 Puma RCWS) of OOB 2 as available since 2015+

3. According to my sources, at the moment Poland owns around 50 Carl Gustav launchers, while nearly all of them are for GROM service. I dont get it why every mechanized unit uses that weapon. We use RPG-7 all the time with our own warheads, Dezamet-invented. Suggestion: Mountain Infantry uses RPG-7MT and that weapon should be provided for great but great majority of the forces.
Idea: OOB 2 units ALL CONTAINING "84mm C Gustaf" should be taken away Gustav (Weapon 214) and replaced by RPG-7MT (Weapon 152) IN EXCEPTION OF Unit 640, 641, 642, 643

4. Dezamet produces advanced warheads since early '80s. I dont understand why LWP lost PG-7VL (penetration of 50cm as far as I know remember) to favour of PG-7V warhead (33-35cm pen). This touched most of late cold war era units, no sense giving all possible IDs here.
Idea: Suggested switching RPG-7 --> RPG-7V for OOB 2 Units: too much to list, would have to edit OOB on the run

5. LWP lost PKM and uses UKM-2000 for no reason in SOME of mechanized sections. Check this out, I guess its just a simple error.
Idea: Units affected are Unit 330 and 331 (formations eg. 230, 231, 224 or 225). Switch UKM-2000 --> PKM (weapon 016 to weapon 013)

6. Currently due to lack of money upgrade of Mi-24 optics is halted. Still, it may start by an moment so I suggest adding also TI version of the Mi-24W, with lower chance of AI selecting that one.
Idea: Unit 125 (Mi-24W) should receive its TI counterpart without editing the unit itself.


BULGARIA (OOB 87):
List is shorter here!

1. It is more than 20 years since fall of communism and Bulgaria still disposes the Experience and Morale 55/60. They participate in NATO missions, are fully professionalized now and trained by various nations including US. In my opinion at the beginning of XXI Century their skills should seemingly increase.
Idea: I suggest 65 Experience and 65 Morale for Bulgaria since year 2001.

2. Bulgaria has pretty decent SF force (brigade sized). Would be nice to add these units to make the roster richer since next patch.
Idea: Addition of SF Units as new units into ORBAT.

3. Bulgaria uses around 100-150 BMP-1s all the time. For unknown reason these were removed from the army in SPMBT around year 1990. Should be brought back and actually held even till 2020. I know nothing about plans of scrapping them.
Idea: Unit 065 (BMP-1) should be activated (I cant see it in-game) and set till 2020.

4. They have plentiful of MTLBs for service as well. Mainly support role and storages, but these should also be added for mechanized infantry, together with BMP-1s.
Idea: Copy the MTLB from different ORBAT and provide it to Bulgaria as new unit. Suggested years of availability: 1975-2020.

5. Bulgaria is in use of Cougar helicopter. Should be added.

6. According to Wikipedia and Wikipedia only, Akatsya systems were sold off or scrapped. Nothing happened to Gvozdika though.
Idea: Unit 040 (Akatsya) should be retired by 2010. Unit 039 (Gvozdika) should be brought back till 2020

7. Bulgaria uses D-20 guns only a towed variant.
Idea: Copy that weapon from different OOB and add for Bulgaria as new unit.


OK, hope this is useful and developers will take this into consideration. Hope it will not be understood as whining or offending.

[Mobhack]

You obviously did not read the sticky post on "Error Reporting Procedure" then?

especially this paragraph:

Do NOT mix nations in one error report. If you have some points on say Finland and some on the USMC, post each in its own separate message thread. (Exceptions might be where one was say comparing the same tank across several OOBS).

Next time - please use the published reporting standard, and especially please do not mix nationalities in one error report.

otherwise - replies to the original post will likely become a tangled mess of things relating to Poland all mangled up with things relating to Bulgarian OOB...

Andy

[SaS TrooP]

Must admin I indeed didn't check it at first, really sorry for that. Tomorrow I will rewrite this topic and provide info as required.

[SaS TrooP]

OK, please take a look now and tell me if such reporting way is OK for you. If not, I will fix it further to learn it once and for all as this is my favourite game and want to help up in its development
Provided OOB numbers, also numbers of units and weapons acquired via Mobhack program.

Now, two things: Do you want me to move Bulgaria into different topic and leave this one's name for edition or let it stay and second thing:

The VERY best way of getting new units you may have created into the official OOB set ( and your name in the credits list ) is to use the existing OOB and build your new units/ formations in an area of the OOB where there are not other units or formations then, if submitted, can be cut and pasted into the main OOB. We very V E R Y rarely accept an OOB anymore simply because we don't know what else you've done to it and we've been bitten too many times.

" I'm new to OOB editing but......"

Yes
I could try to edit Polish OOB only and provide it to you. Just 1 new unit, besides weapon changes. As I scroll through Mobhack and have experience in game edition in general I believe I could quickly crack it and implement pretty much of stuff. Stuill, you say you rarely accept the OObs. Should or should I not try it?

[DRG]

NO I do NOT have time to comb through 200 pages of notes to find the reference to changes made to the Polish OOB but if you look back on this sub forum you won't have to go back far to find a multitude of posts about the Polish OOB and if you find something you disagree with PLEASE do contact the original poster.


Don

[DRG]

Originally Posted by SaS TrooP

Should or should I not try it?

NO, don't bother, the LAST thing I need, want or will open is an OOB from someone with zero experience with OOB work.

Go back and read Michal Derelas posts. Here's a quote about the PT-91 issue

Armour issue:
We have three versions of PT-91 in the game, with different armour: HF/TF steel 40/40, 55/59 and 60/65. In fact, all articles in the Polish military press since prototype presentation in 1993 agree, that all PT-91s present similar level of basic protection, as T-72M1, and the only change is ERA (among others, in Nowa Technika Wojskowa (nTW) 5/93, 4/98, 5/99, 8/99, 9/2007 - especially thorough are last two). Despite a hull was redesigned, but its shape and technology obviously remained the same, as in T-72M1. The Poles didn't carry works on own modern multi-layer front armour by that time - there was no such need in the 80s, because there was a fresh licence to produce T-72M1, regarded as a modern tank, and there were plans to replace it with T-72S (pity, that a licence wasn't bought before fall of communism).

Main improvement of PT-91, enhancing its capabilities over T-72M1, were to be ERA and new fire control system and vision devices (among other improvements was VIRSS system with laser warning system, a bit stronger engine, better ergonomics and crew's safety, modern firefighting system). The only element said to be strengthened, was bottom (against mines - I guess it has no effect in the game).

A production of new PT-91s lasted only in 1995-1997 years, and it is known, that they weren't later modernized in any significant way (not counting stronger engine in two dozen vehicles PT-91M). After this date, further PT-91 were obtained in a way of modernizing T-72M1 tanks in 1998-2002, obviously retaining their hulls and turrets. New and modernized tanks are virtually not distinguished, and all are named just "PT-91" tanks (modernized T-72s are designated in documents PT-91MA1, but it is never used in practice). Definitely their basic armour structure wasn't changed during the service, which would be difficult and expensive, if possible. Article in nTW 9/2007 says explicitly, that even tanks of modernized variant for Malaysia retained basic armour on T-72M1 level, despite new works on multilayer armour carried in Poland.

There were published many articles in military press, suggesting a need of PT-91's modernization. All agree, that armour protection isn't very good, but as tanks are getting old, nobody views armour strengthening to be feasible (earlier some enthusiastic authors suggested a whole new turret, with 120mm gun at best). There are suggested instead other ways to enhance the tank's capabilities, like (in order of cost/effect) new ammunition, new stabilizer, newer model of 125 mm gun, new engine and transmission, eventually new fire control system (all these things were in fact applied to the Malaysian export PT-91). As a result of limited funds, none of these proposals were accepted so far. It looks like the MoD waits until the tanks happily live their lifespan without any scars and the problem gets solved...

Therefore, all PT-91s in the game, from the beginning, should have the same armour - basically the same as T-72M1. As for sides, only rubber skirts were replaced with tin ones. It also should apply to Malaysian PT-91.


ERA issue

I'm afraid, that Polish ERAWA isn't advanced ERA, unlike Soviet Kontakt-5. According to an article by its designer A. Wisniewski, it decreases penetration of HEAT rounds by 50-70% (ERAWA-1) or over 70% (ERAWA-2) and sabot rounds by 30-40% [nTW 2-3/94].
You must decide, if it's "advanced ERA" in game terms - it doesn't stop sabot round as a rule, only decreases its penetration. Maybe it is a justification to increase basic steel armour to values similar to #010 PT-91A1 Twardy (60/65 steel armour)?... But then, isn't it double protection: increased armour and advanced ERA?
Maybe a number of ERA should be increased?

Now, this next bit's important........ IF YOU DISAGREE FEEL FREE TO CONTACT HIM AND DISAGREE. You'll find all 103 of the posts under "Polish OOB 5.5" that may explain the "strange changes" you don't understand.

About the only thing I can say I will look into is the Carl Gustav issue. There should have been an RPG avaiable and the Carl Gustav should have been made "rare"


Don

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by DRG

NO I do NOT have time to comb through 200 pages of notes to find the reference to changes made to the Polish OOB but if you look back on this sub forum you won't have to go back far to find a multitude of posts about the Polish OOB and if you find something you disagree with PLEASE do contact the original poster.


Don

You should first try the search function that the forum provides to find any posts on the subject of interest if you do not see it on an initial casual forum search. e.g. "Bulgaria" as a search term and limited to the SPMBT forum (to avoid WW2) gives a few hits, such as this 2010(?) thread: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showt...light=bulgaria

Also - having found any main thread on your OOB of interest, and having read that thoroughly, the best place for any new posts about it is appended to that "main" thread. (The thread on the Polish OOB is quite recent, only fallen to page 2 of the forum for example, and is quite large).

That may involve some "thread necromancy" when you resurrect a long dead thread, which is normally frowned on if it is simply a casual "me too!" type post, but if there is an existing "Bulgarian OOB" (say) thread of a decent length and you have something similar/related to append - then at least it keeps the queries collated.


NB - The search function is available on the tool-bar situated at the top of the forum titled search.

Andy

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Sas Troop,
In the "Search" use "TWARDY" it'll show the most search results at 14 dating back to 8/05. As to ERAWA it's not true ERA, but, more like a Ceramic Tile add on armor with characteristics similar to NERA (But not as good.). The key difference is in the spacing/gap of the tiles vs standard ERA which does provide some added protection especially against tandem rounds.
Don had addressed the armor issue for the 5.5 release.
The tank...
http://www.army-technology.com/proje...ainbattletank/
http://articles.janes.com/articles/J...BT-Poland.html

ERAWA...
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3862.html
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2011ballistics/12108.pdf

ERAWA-2...
Was an improvement to ERAWA-1 as tested in ref. 2 above. It is a dual layer material, however, it is still susceptible to KE rounds, which Poland hopes to solve with ERAWA-3. Due to the time, I have no information concerning it's development or current status. The PT-91M was delivered with ERAWA-2 to Malaysia.

Regards,
Pat

[SaS TrooP]

So discussion about ERAWA itself could be closed. I am more concerned about ammo as I wrote about it in first post. Provided all the names and basic construction of some of the rounds: its up to you to analyze it and tell me how efficient theoretically should it be.

[DRG]

Based on what was discussed months ago and ignoring any " What-if-in-war-Poland-bought-better-ammo" hypotheticals what's there now in the OOB's represents what is available in real life......

Unfortunately, as for now PT-91s use only obsolete and poor models of Soviet ammunition from the 70s - first generation used with T-72. The best APFSDS is steel BM-15 (apart from it, worse BM-9, 12, 17), the only HEAT are BK-12 and BK-14.

In 1998 there was shown more modern APFSDS Pronit Rys, with Israeli tungsten core - but reportedly only a small party of 1000 were made, due to unsatisfactory penetration (500-540 mm RHA, worsening in frost), and they aren't used in practice. There were also developed one or two Polish rounds, but didn't reach production stage.

There were no new Heat rounds bought nor even proposed and it seems, that no development nor import in this field is planned. As for now, there are no announced plans to buy new APFSDS in following years, but it is possible.

So, tanks with old guns should be available from beginning until end.

.....and until I see information that improves on that from actual credited sources I can cross reference, that's the way it's going to stay.

Don