Tweak to Tuatha

[Thufir]

Newbie though I be, I'd like to suggest a slight change to Man, Last of Tuatha theme. The theme is very nicely designed, with some great units, but it is widely regarded as weak. They're quite interesting in that immediately you are faced with a very difficult design decision in that you'd like to go with a strong bless effect, but paying for it is painful, as you also need points in your scales (your mandated to have Luck 1, and you don't get any heat/cold benefit).

I think one thing that could be easily done in some upcoming patch (perhaps preceded by testing in a mod, if someone were so motivated), would be to give the bard a sage-type research bonus. This seems to me to be thematically appropriate and balanced. I don't see any reason why Last of Tuatha should be in such a tough spot to develop their research as they currently are, and having the sage bonus in the bard still wouldn't make them a top research nation. Alternatively, it might be reasonable to add the sage to their list of units.

Any thoughts?

[quantum_mechani]

I'm not sure I agree that bards should have a research bonus, they don't seem the tye to just sit around in one province. Keep in mind that the change would also effct base Man, thus keeping about the same balance between the themes.

While Tuatha is not a very strong theme, there are still some good reasons to chose it over base. Compare that to Barbarian Kings, and it looks very well off.

[Endoperez]

Why do you think it is thematic that bards will stick to lab and use all their time deciphering ancient texts from the Forests of Avalon? And where are these people who have found it to be too weak?

[Thufir]

quantum_mechani said:
I'm not sure I agree that bards should have a research bonus, they don't seem the tye to just sit around in one province.

Maybe so, in which case I'd say add a sage, or some like research type commander to LoT's available commander list.

Keep in mind that the change would also effct base Man, thus keeping about the same balance between the themes.

I'm aware of that but this is not an issue, since base Man already has a researcher that is better than the sage (Daughter of Avalon).

While Tuatha is not a very strong theme, there are still some good reasons to chose it over base. Compare that to Barbarian Kings, and it looks very well off.

Saying that there are other themes that are worse off is hardly a reason not to improve this theme, especially if the improvement is easy, low risk, and does not introduce difficult balance issues.

[Huzurdaddi]

Uhm in't man Last of the Tuatha one of the good themes? I mean they have a really good bless troop and they have perhaps the most durable air mages in the game.

Their only problem that I can see if that all of their good stuff is capital only and thus they are limited on large maps.

[Cohen]

Well, what I believe indeed is that MAN in general is pretty weak except for small maps.

The big hindrance of capitol only mages commanders and holy troops (I mean serious commanders, Thuatha style or Avalon Witches) except the Bard makes this a damn weak nation in larger maps.

IMO Thuatha Champion, and for Defaul all the maces except the Avalon Crones should be non capitol only ...

For the rest it's good as it is Man.
Air User (perhaps AbUser with those modifications however, but at least you cannot recruit A2 mages around as Vanheim can, but onlu A1 plus nature).

About blessable troops ... well Vanheim is still better, with mounted or flying sacreds, even if more costy.
Even more the Mother of Thuata is not even comparable to the allmighty Odin Allfather.

[quantum_mechani]

Thufir said:

Maybe so, in which case I'd say add a sage, or some like research type commander to LoT's available commander list.

I'm aware of that but this is not an issue, since base Man already has a researcher that is better than the sage (Daughter of Avalon).

Saying that there are other themes that are worse off is hardly a reason not to improve this theme, especially if the improvement is easy, low risk, and does not introduce difficult balance issues.

Actually, it would still effect base man quite a bit. The Sages would be better reseachers than daughters in the early turns, in addition they would be non-capital only and provide a cheap random. I would say almost any nation with unrestricted sages (meaning at every fort) would need some very serious drawbacks to be balanced. Also, I can't say adding Sages seems very thematic (not exactly un-thematic either, I suppose).

[Cainehill]

I disagree that Tuatha are weak, thus don't agree that the bards should receive a research bonus. Sure, they are fairly weak as far as research goes, albeit actually :

22 themes have noticeably better research.
7 themes are approximately equal.
8 themes have noticeably worse research, 6 significantly so, with their best researchers costing at least .5 gold more per Research Point, 1 whose best costs over 1 gold more per RP.

(It's hard to get a really good comparison, but since many nations take at least Magic 1 if not forced to take drain, I compared all with Magic 1 for 30 turns.)

Of those that are roughly equal or worse, some are generally considered "weaker" than Last of the Tuatha : Machaka, base Ulm, base Ermor, and if you believe Cohen, Abysia.

So - LotT are slightly down in the bottom half of the barrel research wise.

Balancing that, they have one of the 3 best national commanders in the game, great for spell casting, great for combat, and having recuperation so their wounds go away - you can even put disease inflicting items on them. True, they're capital only, but they can Air Trapeze without needing any booster items.

Actually, I think the only weakness of the Tuatha theme is that basically everything good is capital only : their two best commanders, and their two sacred troops. But again - balanced by having great sacred troops; not quite as wonderful as Vanheim's but significantly cheaper.

And one of their capital only commanders is actually a cheaper researcher than the bard, if you go 50 turns or more, because it's sacred.

Like many nations, you simply want to find independents to do the heavy lifting on research.

The thing I think LotT could use for improvement is having at least 1 of its sacred troops or sacred commanders not be capital only.

And also, Man is one of the very few nations that gets worse PD for each point over 20 than it gets for points under 20, which seems flawed to me. (Man and Pangaea each get 2 units for PD under 20; over PD, they simply lose one of the units, without getting a better unit type.)

[Pickles]

Per Liga's book guide which observation has not contradicted, the over 20 point PD troops are in addition to the other ones, not instead of.

Pickles

[The Panther]

Pickles said:
Per Liga's book guide which observation has not contradicted, the over 20 point PD troops are in addition to the other ones, not instead of.

Pickles

This is correct. These are additive, and you always get the base 1-19 PD troops for every single point of defense both before and after 20. The manual is very confusing on this particular point.