Comparison of Knights

[tinkthank]

In a post a while ago asking about Tien Chi, the thread moved towards an analysis of heavy cav / knight type units, the upshot of which that many people said that the Red Guard is a very very nice unit, one of the best around.

I've got a few questions about this, especially regarding the units: Van, Red Guards, Knights of the Chalice, and I have tossed in the Knights of Avalon and Black Knights for the heck of it.

My main questions include:
1. Why is the K of the Chalice so expensive?
2. Does anyone else feel the Van to be the "winner" (for its price and availability)?
3. I really don't think the Red Guard is *that* great -- do you?

(I'd like to put in a little chart displaying their info, but after 3 tries I cant get it to format correctly. It's at the bottom of this post (in unpleasing form)).

By just looking at the units out of context (which is of course silly, but that is what a unit comparison does I suppose), it seems to me that the Van comes out on top.
You can get the Van *anywhere*, not just in your capital. For 70 gold, it is amongst the cheapest, and it is sacred for half upkeep (and bless effects). It has the best MR of all, which I find to be of extreme importance, more and more the later in the game one gets. Its only weaknesses seem to be its relatively low protection and morale. When one considers, however, that it has an 18 defense and *glamour* (yikes), I find that more than makes up for its low protection. And I have never had morale problems with Vans, perhaps too because I almost always have at least 1 priestly type around (they are sacred too).
To top it all off, they are amongst the most stealthy units in the game. Coupled with the ability to make them in any castle anywhere and their *exceedingly low* resource cost, you can get quite where you want them with no problems. Additionally, it is surpassed in speed only by the Knights of Avalon.
I think the Van wins hands down.
`
Which brings me to the Red Guard, which has a similar cost, except that it requires more than double the resources. And it is available in the home capital *only*. In fact, its "normal" stats are inferior to the Van's in every single facet except morale and a tiny increase in protection: slower, more costly, less HP, less MR, less str, less attack skill, less defense. And of course it has neither glamour or other special abilities.

So why the hubbub about the Red Guard? Yes of course the context makes it important: you get it in addition to all those nice bowmen etc. But I still think the Red Guard comes out Last except for Ulm. I think the Red Guard is a bit weak, just looking at the Van.

Not much can compare with a Knight of Avalon, except that you must pay quite a bit to get it, and it is home province only. In addition to high MR, it is the fastest unit of all. In addition to all its wonderful stats, which really dont seem to be lacking in anything, it has recuperation. Its only "problem" is its sanctity, or lack thereof.

That is the only thing which the Knight of the Chalice has going for it in this league, it seems to me. It has similar stats to the KofAvalon, except lower MR and much slower speed. What do you think of this unit for its price?

In general, it seems to me as if the Van is just way too scary for its price and non-captial-availability. I would like to see Vans cost a bit more. I'd also like to see the Red Guard either cost a bit less or have some increased bonuses of some sort.

Thanks for listening and replying!

Van Man Ulm Tien Marig

hp 13 14 15 10 14
prot 13 20 24 15 20
moral 12 15 15 15 15
MR 14 13 9 12 12
str 11 12 13 10 12
attk 12 12 12 12 13
def 18 16 9 14 14
move 3/26 3/30 2/18 2/20 2/20

gold 70 85 60 70 90
res 16 61 70 42 61
sac yes no no yes yes
home no yes no yes yes

spec glam recup

[Endoperez]

Originally posted by tinkthank:

code:

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     Van     Man     Ulm     Tien     Marig



hp      13      14      15      10      14

prot	13	20	24	15	20

moral	12	15	15	15	15

MR	14	13	9	12	12

str	11	12	13	10	12

attk	12	12	12	12	13

 

---

Code-tags do wonders. Although I don't understand why hp-column needs so many spaces...

I haven't tried Vanir with bless effects of DomII, but with something like Blood-6, Fire-6 of Dom:PPP they were quite good... They can't kill off heavily armored units, like the knights, but their high defence keeps them alive for quite a long time.

[ April 21, 2004, 13:20: Message edited by: Endoperez ]

[reverend]

Maybe I over-read it, but you didn't include the Black Knight in your analysis of the stats.

Black Knights are my favoured heavy cavalry. They have superior protection, HP and strength. Their weakness is their slow speed, but in combination with the overall slow Ulm army, it doesn't usually show. MR is an issue, and possibly low defense. They, however, do have the first-strike of the lance. Gold costs are the lowest of all heavy cavalry, but like all Ulm troops they need a lot of resources. Compared to (esp.) Van or Tien, this is a major drawback if you are in an area without many high-res provinces. The difference to Man and Marignon is negligible as the difference in gold is larger.

That said, I have worse experiences with all kinds of heavy cavalry than I had with Black Knights. Man heavy cavalry and Marignon specifically. I typically use a small group of Knights for expansion in the beginning, and while I always loose some with Man or Marignon, I have yet to loose Black Knights during that phase. Then again, that may be just the "Ulm heavy armor" factor against Independents.

[ April 21, 2004, 15:48: Message edited by: reverend ]

[tinkthank]

@reverend: sorry, I sort of excluded the BN because I think it's a no-contest vs. the other two "heavy" knight units as far as cost/usage goes. BNs cost less originally, but since they are not sacred you pay through the nose for upkeep. The KofA is also not sacred, but he is worth it IMO, and recuperation is just great. Also, the BN'S low MR makes them sitting ducks later in the game.

@endoperez: How did you format that please?

[Gateway103]

@endoperez: How did you format that please? [/QB]

I am not Endoperez, but I can help you with that.
Simply add the tags "code" and "/code" before and after, replacing quotation mark with square brackets, and type the info between as you would want it to appear.

To see an example, use QUOTE on Endoperez's post, and see how he formated the columns. It really is an easy yet useful tag ^_^

-Gateway103

[tinkthank]

Originally posted by Endoperez:

quote:

---

Originally posted by tinkthank:

code:

---

  

     Van     Man     Ulm     Tien     Marig



hp      13      14      15      10      14

prot	13	20	24	15	20

moral	12	15	15	15	15

MR	14	13	9	12	12

str	11	12	13	10	12

attk	12	12	12	12	13

 

---

Code-tags do wonders. Although I don't understand why hp-column needs so many spaces...

---

Ah ok -- thanks much. I just type how he did it and it automatically takes the nice formatting of my wordpad? (I thought "code" stood for something I must then enter, like a long number or whatever.) Thanks!

[Patrik]

I like the Vans as well, however, the low strength+spear combo (damage only 14!) is hurting them and without some bless effects I think there are several more priceworthy options.

My absolute favorite cavalry for the moment (although it can hardly be called a knight unit) is Pangeas Centaur Warrior (CW). These are the stats:

code:

---

 

hp           20

prot         11

mor          12

MR           13

str          13

att          10 

def          16

mov         3/29

gold/res   40/11

---

These stats are quite good in themselves, (except for prot and attack), however, what makes CWs shine are their wonderful 'add-ons'

1. Berserk +3. This is a Nature 8 blessing for free! Very nice increase to protection, attack and damage. Defense will decrease to 13, which however still is quite decent.
2. Recuperation. Due to the low prot the CWs will get hurt a lot, however they have a good chance of surviving thanks to the 20 hp. I see very few afflictions among my squads with 2 or 3 stars veterans.
3. Sneaky. Only Vanheim has better (but more expensive) sneaking troops
4. Forest survival. Most importantly, this makes it possible to take full advantage of the strategic move of 3.
5. Hoof damage = Strength. Normal cavalry have a somewhat useless Hoof attack with damage 10 (strength not added). Pangeans Hoof damage is 0 with strength added. For CWs that means 13 normal, then 16! when they go berserk.

Since I use CWs as the core of my Pangean armies, I can easily afford to take sloth 2, giving me points to spend elsewhere.

Buffs are an issue by itself, but IMO a Pan casting Summon Earth Power/Legions of Steel/Strength of Giants on a squad of CWs with Hold and Attack orders will create a truly awesome force, capable of taking on any standard troops. And then of course there is Mass Protection.

/Patrik

[Huzurdaddi]

I find Van's with a good bless effect ( water anyone? ) to be almost silly good. Sure they don't kill quickly due to their low damage attack, but they sure don't take any damage either ( their defence becomes silly ). Add in the glamour ability and you will have units with lots of experience stars in no time. And that only makes the defence go higher! Yokies.

Sadly I find bless effects pretty costly in general. You are pretty much giving up on a really effective SC when you go for a big bless effect ( like water 10 wooooot ).

[Firebreath]

Some good stuff. Just to add a little,

Most heavy cav are very good when used in their context.

E.g. the Van cav. when used with a water 10 blessing, and glamour combo.

Ulm cavalry (which comes sacred, but capital only in one of the themes), with an earth 10 blessing, becomes equally formidable, especially if combined with the protection spell ulm starts with, they get to a protection of about 33 I think. Of course, their low magic resistance is a big drawback, but just put some militia in front to draw the initial mag. flak.

The amazon cavalry is amazingly cheap, and generally has pretty good stats, and one of them is fearfull to boot. They only have spears, but they're tactictly flexible (unlike some of the other heavy cavs).

Other cavalry units that have not been mentioned are unit (leader) cavalry. Sacred and not. Unique units too. When equiped with good items, they can be pretty good supercombatants.

One final point: an important additional comparison point is the weapons that they come with. Lances + morningstar, of course, are a damn sight better than a simple spear. But then, all heavy cav. are good, just as long as you use them in the right situation.

I'm curious though, has anyone found a good use of the fire mage cavalry (it comes from a magic site, and is basically a heavy cav. leader with fire 2). Apart from fire shield (which is nice when fighting off hordes of low hp units with just one regenerating unit), I can't think of anything else to do with the magic. Any ideas?

[ April 21, 2004, 22:48: Message edited by: Firebreath ]

[E. Albright]

Well, Fire Lords do offer fairly high mundane leadership for a recruitable mage...

Since the subject of exotic units has now been breeched, where do y'all think Grey Knights fit into the grand scheme of knight quality?