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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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[ March 21, 2003, 00:19: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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I'm gonna use your favorite trick here: Link please. I do not deny that France actively sought sales in Iraq, but AFAIK the US did not try to prevent the sales (something they easily could have done, since the Mirage aircrafts include a lot of restricted technology France would need permission to sell). If you can prove me wrong, I will bow to the master. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
when does the moon wax or is it wain.... Thats when the ground forces attack. Still to bright at night. So Friday , or Sunday.
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
It is not US policy to block sales made by other nations. I have posted a list of the Nations that France sold F-1s to. And most of them were not allowed to purchase US weapons at the time. The US is not overly picky about who we sell to, but we do not supply advanced weapons to despots. My link is in the quote contained in my Last post. The full text can be found at Globalsecurity’s web site. Mr Pike is well known for posting facts that the US would have rather kept out of the public eye. Now I would like to see your link showing US involvement in the French arms sales.
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Now your pulling a Fyron on me.
The burden of evidence is Yours, since you called my post untrue. Your link have no evidence either for or against US support. It's just a list of sales that nobody denies. Anyway, all this is ancient history and the planes will be of no practical use in this war. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
The US linkage to the Iraq Iran war has already been posted and discussed in this very thread. Advice, Intelligence, and Loan Guarantees are the descriptions of the involvement. I’m sure that personal advice was also given, but the document only alludes to the value of this. At no point does the document say that the US provided advanced weaponry to Saddam. Fact is that the other side was using American weapons, although they were previously on hand.
Now you have stated that Saddam bought the F 1’s with the blessings of the US government. Post some supporting evidence or admit that it was a personal opinion. No one will fault you for stating your opinion, it is a right that we all have here. But we will fault you for stating opinion as fact. To ask that I provide proof that something didn’t happen is ridiculous. What evidence would there be of a non event. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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That Global Security website doesn't mention who supplied Iraq with the cultures it used to start its biological weapons program. There was a US senate report in 1994 detailing all the shipments, that continued after Saddam was gassing Kurds in the 80s. Now what the hell was that? What sort of crazy nutter gives Saddam the tools to make biological weapons? How completely f*ck*d up is that? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif You want links? http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2...elp-list_x.htm www.timesOnline.co.uk/article/0,,3-528574,00.html http://www.washtimes.com/national/20021001-8211716.htm Askan |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
The Biologic agents were provided in good faith under a program that was intended to help free the world from these organisms. It was a program developed at the UN in conjunction with the CDC. Was it done in poor judgment, I think so. But you link this to the use of Chemical weapons, and those would fall at the feet of the Soviets, and were manufactured in French supplied plants. Also the US never supplied the equipment to make large quantities of these agents. Again, this would be the French and Germans. Sure, they may have thought that the equipment was for other uses. But now that it is time to put a stop to this foolishness, where are the three main suppliers.
In closing, at least America has the fortitude to put and end to this madness. We will end the reign of this particular despot. Which is a hell of a lot more than France wanted to do. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
A little research goes a long way. This is where the samples came from. This is not part of the US government. And what it did was legal at the time it was done. Stupid yes, but not against the law at that time.
http://www.atcc.org/About/AboutATCC.cfm |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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I don't link them to chemical weapons, I just pointed out the shipments continued after the gassing of Kurds, by a horrible murderous tyrant. See my point really is this- You sit there and spout stuff about how bad the French are in arming this complete anus of a man ("Remember they are the bastards that sold this tyrant a breeder reactor."), while claiming the US has has been almost perfect in its handling of Iraq over the Last 30 years ("but we do not supply advanced weapons to despots") and here's hard evidence the US started Saddam's biological weapons program, which you dismiss with a "poor judgement" and a "the US never supplied the equipment to make large quantities of these agents". Its weak, very weak. Oh...the cultures was sent by both the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (government) and the American Type Culture Collection (approved by the government). The usatoday article lists who sent what. Askan Not supporting the arming of despots by anyone. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Spy photo????
http://politicalhumor.about.com/libr...q_****iraq.jpg Edit: took the tags off, you'll have to hit the link [ March 21, 2003, 03:13: Message edited by: Thermodyne ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Ever wonder how the White House wages war in the computer age?
http://politicalhumor.about.com/libr..._warwizard.gif |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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I don't link them to chemical weapons, I just pointed out the shipments continued after the gassing of Kurds, by a horrible murderous tyrant. See my point really is this- You sit there and spout stuff about how bad the French are in arming this complete anus of a man ("Remember they are the bastards that sold this tyrant a breeder reactor."), while claiming the US has has been almost perfect in its handling of Iraq over the Last 30 years ("but we do not supply advanced weapons to despots") and here's hard evidence the US started Saddam's biological weapons program, which you dismiss with a "poor judgement" and a "the US never supplied the equipment to make large quantities of these agents". Its weak, very weak. Oh...the cultures was sent by both the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (government) and the American Type Culture Collection (approved by the government). The usatoday article lists who sent what. Askan Not supporting the arming of despots by anyone.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You seem to have skipped the Last part. America, England and Australia are putting an end to this jerk. What art the rest doing? Many are protecting their Iraqi cash cow. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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The USA had a hand in the making of Saddam, just like France (which you like to target) and other countries. If your going to rave about how the French gave him this, and the French gave him that then you have to acknowledge the US's part in making of the Frankenstein. Askan |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Everyone keeps watching Iraq well IMHO only, the real country to watch, which again IMHO is a lot more radical, deadly, and better trained and armed is North Korea. And they are a lot more capable of using mass destruction weapons, bio, chemical, a-bomb, then even Saddam. Their country is even more repressive then Iraq. They are by far the more dangerous of the two countries.
In regards to who helped who, who backed who, etc, at this point is mute. Everyone makes mistakes even the US when they decide to back a specific leader/country. Remember at one time we backed and supported Castro and look where that led. So in conclusion, All countries make mistakes and one never knows how it will eventually turn out. The problem now is, how to undo what was done. Is France at fault, sure, is the US at fault, yep, is the UN at fault, yep again. Saddam should have been dealt with years ago even before Desert Storm. The UN is a paper pussy cat who can't enforce or fails to enforce its own resolutions. My 2 cents, I hope I didn't offend anyone, don't mean to, just IMHO just some ideas Mac |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Maybe they are using Iraq for practice before they move on Korea. Maybe they are hoping to invoke Korea to do something stupid.
Just some observational opinions. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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As far as the Mirages go, the French sold them to them :-) Actually, Iraq had some in the first Gulf war. Maybe some of those that were flown to Iran to escape the Allies were given back? I do remember that the Iraqi air defense system was French built and was back in operation shortly after the first Gulf war. Those French outfits must give really good maintenance service, eh? [ March 21, 2003, 05:39: Message edited by: solops ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
I wonder why the stock market has been going up these Last few days? Before the war started, the market was dropping and it was thought that this was because people were worried that there's going to be a war. Now that it has begun, the market is going up, I don't understand. They're saying that it's going up because people think that the war is going to be short. The stock market seems to make no sense. Oil prices going up and down don't seem to make sense either?
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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[ March 21, 2003, 06:09: Message edited by: solops ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
[quote]Originally posted by Askan Nightbringer:
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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Geoschmo |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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And there I was, thinking that all those stingers were floating around in the international scene, just waiting for someone to use them against civilian aircraft. When the US first started giving them to the Afgan freedom fighters almost two decades ago, I felt the stingers would become a serious problem. Now I understand why remarkably few civilian aircraft were destroyed by stingers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Kudos to the U.S. for realizing their potential danger in the long term. |
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Thermo, any major power in the world sells weapon to other states and the US does not deserve more bashing for it then other weapon selling nation. But saying the US does not sell high tech weapons to dictators and 3-World-nations is just plain wrong. Quote:
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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[ March 21, 2003, 13:49: Message edited by: Perrin ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Iraki joke:
-How many American planes can be shot down by anti-aircraft fire? -None if it doesn't happen within CNN range. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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Here's the link again. Geoeschmo |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
That link doesn't work.
That Daer name sounds like that good o'l city, long Daer, in Middle Earth...... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Alloofi, the link works fine. Not sure why you don't get it. Could your ISP be blocking it or something maybe?
Geoschmo |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
http://www.commondreams.org/headline...es/0321-01.jpg
"A U.S. Marine replaces the Iraqi flag at the entrance to Iraq's main port of Umm Qasr on March 21, 2003 with the Stars and Stripes and the flag of the Marine Corps. Marines briefly raised the U.S. flag over Umm Qasr after facing tougher than expected resistance in and around the southern Iraq port. Some time later, the flag was removed. No reason was given for the decision.. (Desmond Boylan/Reuters) " |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
The decision to take the flag down was the same as the reason the coalition forces were ordered not to prominantly display US flags on their battle vehicles. It's in deferance to the sensibilities of the Iraqi citizens. Since this isn't a war about taking and keeping ground in the name of the US, but about removing the current regime from power and allowing the Iraqi's to rule themselves.
Geoschmo |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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Every once in a while it seems to be necessary to shed kilo gallons of blood to keep the "game" running, it's too sad. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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The French have already said that if the Iraqi's use chem/bio weapons during the course of the war it will change things for them. If they aren't used I believe it will be because the coalition prevented it, or the Iraqi's didn't follow those orders. Not because the chem/bio weapons weren't available. The reconstruction should involve everybody, even those opposed to the war. In that way we can start the process of reconstructing our relations as well as with the Iraqi nation. Geoschmo |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
This will take a little time to read and digest. But in a nut shell is shows who ordered how much from whom. If you want to skip the world stuff, go to about page 34 for the gulf region.
http://www.csis.org/gulf/reports/tre...sexpgulfme.pdf |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Any thoughts on what Turkey might do with its troops poised to invade?
I just heard about it on Fox News Channel or was it MSNBC? Turkey is talking about invading Iraq now. Not good at all. |
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So is the invasion of Iraq about justice, liberation and threat of terrorist attack or is is just another strategic move in the never ending quest for complete US dominance? Quote:
Askan |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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Kill Kurds. Askan |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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Anyway, becasue of this Turky has withdrawn the premission to use their airspace that had been approved yesterday. Geoschmo [ March 21, 2003, 18:07: Message edited by: geoschmo ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Okay, here's what I think:
The USA is a bunch of b*stards because they kept the whole world from becoming communist through the 60 - 80s. You don't like what they did in helping to create despots?... perhaps you'd have prefered a nuclear war instead of the cold one?? Or maybe the US and UK should have just rolled over and let the USSR have their way across the globe. The USSR was a bunch of b*stards too, again for setting up nasty regimes in their attempt make the entire world communist. A million murders here and a million slaughters there adds up. Call me stupid, but I still think Pinoche and Saddam are the lesser of two evils when compared to world annihilation. Now that the cold war is over we can attempt to wash our hands of all the nastinesses that happened, but to Regan, Thatcher, John-Paul, and Gorbechevs (sp) credit they finally created a world that could stop with the clandenstine power/murder games. Hind-sight is said to be 20/20, but the politicians of the era did not have the advantage of our hind-sight! They did what they thought could improve the world (to their world view) with the knowledge they had. It wasn't their fault that they were not omnicient! In summary, I think that some people may be engaged in critisizim out of context... I think there may be just a hint of reconstructionism going on here. sure Saddam is nasty horrible bad bad bad, both now and yesterday. But can you imagine what the world would be like if the USSR had overtaken those oilfields? Can you imagine what the radiation levels across the world would be like right now if the USA and USSR got into a direct fight over the middle east instead of letting their proxy states do the fighting? As much as I hate to say it, men like Saddam had their uses at one point in history, but now we are in a new era, with a different set of problems and solutions. It's very unfair to apply todays realities to yesterday however... |
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And let's not talk of the long number of allies and friends that the US have abandoned: -South Viet Nam -Chile -Argentine -Iran -Philipines -South Africa And don't forget the unfullfilled promises to the Republic of Russia....... Now next in the list is Israel. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Turkey wants the northern Iraq oil fields. Why else act so stupidly.
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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Not a bad idea. Repart Irak between Turkey, Iran and Arabia. But I don't think certain corporations would like something like this. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
The second thing that I think:
(yeah, only two thoughts today) The world has roundly critisized the USA (and UK) for having ulterior motives in the Iraq situation. They have been labeled Hypocrite!!, Self-Interested!!, Imperial!! And everyone wants to point out that the US helped to "create Saddam" as well. In the mean time proponents of the US action love to point out that France has some ulterior motives, to which people with anti-war leanings yell "foul! you can't hide the US motives behind they wonderful French" I say, certainly all of those critisms are true to some degree. However, the point is not that France is bad because they sold Sadam some weapons... the point is that France is claiming the moral high road when their hands are as covered in filth as the US! For goodness sake people, the US is not the only group with self-interest at stake here... France gets oil at <$5/barrel through the food-for-oil program. They have oil contracts with Iraq ready to go as soon as the sanctions are lifted - but the contracts are with Sadam's regime. A huge percentage of the population of France is Muslim, and Chirac would really like to get re-elected. France, like many countries sells arms to developing and third world regimes. There is nothing illegal about that. Is it unethical? Yes, often it is. But name me a single country that isn't selling or buying weapons. Name me a single country that isn't selling or buying oil. Name me a single country that doesn't want to control Iraqi soil, and I'll concede to you that this is the country that is "sanitized" in this whole affair - they should be finding and executing the solution to Sadam instead of the USA. But that nation does not exist! So I think it would be best for everyone to scrub the angry accusations of "self interest" and "ulterior motive" altogether. Everyone has self interest and ulterior motives in this affair. Once these accusations and the historical blame game (see my previous post today) are done with, we can begin to really deal with the questions: 1) should Sadam be deposed (irregardless of who should depose him) 2) how can damage to the Iraqi population and infrastructures be minimized 3) how do we "rebuild" Iraq after the war considering it multitudes of factions (ethnic and religious) 4) how do we utilize the wealth potential of Iraq to benefit the people of Iraq, not just a small elite? 5) how do we keep neighbours, such as Iran and Turkey, from gobbling up a demilitarized Iraq? Those are, IMHO, the things that should be debated. The blame game is becoming tiresome. Edit Aloofi: you seem surprised or disappointed that the US does not live up to it's promises. If we step away from "shoulda coulda" however, into the mists of international politics, name me a country that does stick to it's promises! If it ain't on paper with the President's signature, it ain't a contract my friend. Dishonourable, sure! That's the way the world works though. Crying won't solve the problem, just lawyers http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif [ March 21, 2003, 19:20: Message edited by: jimbob ] |
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