[OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.

[Andrés]

You probably have already seen this message, but here it is anyway.

TO SAY NO by Eduardo Galeano

The president of the planet has announced his next crime in the name of God and democracy. This is how he slanders God. He also slanders democracy, which has managed to survive in the world despite the dictatorships that the
United States have been sowing everywhere for over a century.
Bush’s government, that more than a government seems a pipeline, needs to seize the second world reserve of oil, that lies under the soil of Iraq. Also, it needs to justify the enormous amount of money of its military expenses and needs to parade in the battlefield the state of the art models of his arms industry.
This is it. The rest is only excuses. And the excuses for the coming carnage offend the intelligence. The only country that has used nuclear arms against a civilian population, the country that burst the atomic bombs that annihilated Hiroshima and Nagasaki, intends to convince us that Iraq is a danger for humanity. If president Bush loves humankind so much, and if he really wants to avert the most serious threat that humankind is facing, why doesn´t he bomb himself,
instead of planning a new extermination of innocent people?
Humankind is sick and tired of being used as an alibi by its murderers. It is also sick and tired of crying for its dead at the end of each war:
this time it wants to stop the war that is going to kill them.

Now they have fabricated the evidence to provide the excuse they needed, and say that that it would be too costly to remove the troops.

MODERATOR EDIT: Changed the title from "Humankind is sick and tired of being used as an alibi by its murderers." to "Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation."

edit2: Matched subject to the topic drift.

[ April 16, 2003, 16:16: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[primitive]

I am with you on this Andrès.

Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.

[Arkcon]

[ March 09, 2003, 02:16: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

[Thermodyne]

Sorry guys, I had made a promise to myself that I would try to stay out of this line of threads. But this is beyond my limits of restraint. Any FOOL can take historical facts and bend them to support unfounded statements. But when looked at in a more complete context, the quoted brain fart is just pure garbage. Especially the use of atomic weapons. Japan got just what it had coming. The two nuclear releases brought the war to an end, and saved lives on both sides. It should also be noted that we were not the only nation trying to build the weapons in 1945. One of the weapons we used benefited from the production capabilities of the Nazi’s. And it was the intent of their allies in Asia to use the material in the form of a dirty bomb on their own soil. Also while America has had many failures at nation building, we have also had the best results of any nation that has ever tried to rebuild the economies and governments of nations destroyed by war.

As for Iraq, they hold the key to their future. If they disarm, then there will not be war. If they continue to thumb their noses as they lie and cheat their way past the inspection process, then they will again experience the weight of American arms. Lets face it guys, this man gassed thousands of his own citizens. That in itself is reason enough to have him before the bench with his life on the line.

It is very easy for nations to look past their own short comings as they debate the actions of others. But if the world were left to the historical actions of these same nations, half would be under the colonial boot, and many of the rest would be under the boot of conquering armies. As for the voice of Argentina, I would think that the internal failures of Argentinean government would be sufficient to keep the need for published rhetoric occupied.

No nation has been as generous as America during times of need. And no nation has ever been so generous to its fallen foes as America. America is not perfect, but when compared to the rest of the world, we look pretty damn good.

[ February 25, 2003, 02:25: Message edited by: Thermodyne ]

[DocShane]

I agree, Thermodyne. Guess we know who the Americans and non-Americans are in this post.

[SamuraiProgrammer]

If we had wanted Iraq for the oil, we would have kept it Last time.

It is undisputable that Saddam Hussein is a terrorist. He used chemical warfare against his OWN POPULATION.

It is undisputable that he has encouraged terrorist acts against this country.

He rose to power in Iraq by assasinating any member of the legislature that had opposed him. I have seen videos of the event. For hours he sat and called them out, one by one, and had them killed. Grown men were blubbering in their chairs because they knew they were probably on the list.

These are the facts.

Is there a definite link between Saddam Hussein & 9-11? We will never know for sure. For every report that says yes, there will be one that says no.

Has he publicly advocated such actions? Yes.

Should he pay for those statements? Yes.

Should the people of Iraq pay with him? The knee jerk reaction is NO. Upon further inspection, though, there might be a different answer. How responsible are they for the actions of their government?

If the entire population of Iraq got up from prayers one morning and said "No. You are Evil. You are wrong. We will not cooperate. We will not be party to your tyrrany. Step Down," and began a campaign of peaceful civil disobedience (ala Mahatma Gandhi or Martin Luther King) what would happen?

If you determine that that is useless, they could find ways to leave. Considering the amount of contraband that is smuggled all over the world, I believe that people could get out if they really wanted to.

They have choices and are not exercising them.

If they populace of that country rose up in peaceful civil disobedience, how many civilians would die before it came to an end?

I don't know, but I suspect it is more than the number of civilians that died in the Gulf War. And, furthermore, I suspect it is more than the number of civilians that are likely to die if this war commences.

War is bad. War is ugly. War is evil.

What is happening at the behest of Saddam Hussein is (at the very least) as bad, ugly, and evil.

We must choose between evils. We can let this go on until he evaporates a city with nuclear fire. Or we can try to stop it now before it goes any further.

Unfortunately, those are our choices.

Talk has failed to work for 12 years.

The most peaceful periods in history have been named Pax Romana and Pax Brittanica. During these periods, those two empires exerted enough military dominance that no one was strong enough to fight back.

Rome had the Iron Pilum.

Britain had their navy.

Where we failed as a country was in failing to impose a Pax Americana when we had the bomb and no one else did. To be sure, we should allow cultures and societies to evolve and retain their individuality. But no where, in my opinon, does that imply that we must live in fear.

You are entitled to your opinion.

So am I.

One Last thing:

Yes, the United States of America is the only country to have used nuclear weapons in anger. I am not particularly proud of that fact. But I would ask you to take a hard look at the following and THINK.

In the past, many have tried to conquer Europe. Rome (various leaders), Charlemagne, Genghis Khan, Napolean, Kaiser Wilhelm, and Adolph Hitler all made amazingly successful attempts. Since the release of nuclear weapons, no one has tried.

How many lives has that saved?

In World War II, 15 million soldiers died. Between 26 million and 34 million civilians died. How does that number compare to the tragic losses at Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

How many might Saddam Hussein kill if we keep letting him get away with things incrementally.

How many fewer would have died between 1939 and 1945 if Hitler had been stopped in Czechoslovakia or the Sudetenland?

No one complained when we kept the peace in Europe and Eastern Asia in the 1940's. Apparently we have more work to do.

Pulling a thorn is usually painful. Amputating the leg because you were squeamish about the thorn is debilitating.

Which would you choose?

If you are citizen of the United States, call your congressman and voice your opinion. Vote for whomever represents your views.

If you are not a citizen of the United States, mind your own damn business.

[Fyron]

And where did that bunk come from Andres?

[Instar]

Oh god get out the flame boots...

[Fyron]

No nation has been as generous as America during times of need. And no nation has ever been so generous to its fallen foes as America. America is not perfect, but when compared to the rest of the world, we look pretty damn good.

In fact, the US refused to agree to the treaty created by its European allies for Germany and its allies to sign after World War I. Wilson negotiated a separate treaty between the US and Germany because the other one was too harsh and would only serve propagate the hatred between the German people and their neighbors.

[Puke]

Good to hear from you, Doc. And others.

Lets keep it cool though. People are entitled to their oppinions, and are allowed to dislike US forign policy. Often, they have alot of reasons to. Anyone who has read my B.S. knows that Im behind our war effort in Iraq, the Philipines, Columbia, and wherever else we have troops on the ground fighting. But lets keep cool heads.