Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I would call it terrorism too, but for them it was war already... And bombing the pentagon in a normal way is not possible for them. This is what you get when to not equal enemies fight.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Because, the first thing that dies in a war..... is the truth.

DavidG: Calm down plz..., i didn't suggest it.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Its ridiculous for us... Thats the problem (i want to add that i do see it as an terrorist act, but also GWB his war is.)
The bombs that miss and hit civilians are what?? Collateral damage? Remeber that US can permit itself to say what to attack and destroy, something the opposition can't.
The problem is that this was (i guess) the only way to "make their point". Bomb the pentagon? (no way), use a private plane (shot from the air in a sec).... Its just an to unequal war (for them) to stick to the "principles of war".
Guerilla tactics are largely based on: hit, run & fear.

IMO: First look at what you do wrong, before telling someone else what he does wrong (when you are just as wrong yourself).
&
This war is just to enequal to make them stick to any rules.

R.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

So, another ”interesting http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif ” incident. Marines kill 10 civilians, including 5 children under 5 years of age, in a van.

Probable reason: The vans driver did not understand a stop signal.

War Crime or acceptable collateral damage ?

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yea you did. And not not only that now you've made another post that appears to justify their actions as it is the 'only way to make their point'

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">How about unaceptable collateral damage. Clearly if they had know it was a bus full of unarmed women and children they would not have fired.

As a side note on civilian casualties why is it that Iraq seems to be held to a different standard than the coalition? Has anyone asked Iraq why they are lobbing missles into Kuwait city or firing at civilians leaving Basra?

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Cover-up? It has already been reported that the platoon leader's commander tore a strip out of the guy for not firing the warning shot early enough. "You f--ing killed a family" he supposedly said. That said I would still view this as an accident and one that quite likely was caused in part by what Geo suggested. Given the tactics used so far I for one am not in a postition to second guess the actions of troops in the field. The only way this could be considered a war crime is if you consider the whole conflict a war crime (which some obviously do)

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If that second part was also directed at me then I apologize. It is not what I believe or intended to come across in my Posts. (and yea I know I have taken exception to a couple of Posts (not yours) I thought were pro Saddam but the vast majority of anti war Posts put forward perfectly valid points. A lot of which I agree with)

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

DavidG

It is the "You f--ing killed a family" quote that makes me believe it’s not a stupid suicide driver as Geo suggests, but a misunderstanding of the proper procedures from the drivers side.

We will know in a couple of days if there is a cover-up or not.

Re: The other post.
It was both a general message and a hint to you. Anyway, No hard feelings http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Well if this article turns out to be true, then it starts to look more like a stupid mistake, or even gross incompetance. It's way to early to know for sure at this point of course. I'd be very suprised if it turns to be some sort of deliberate act on the part of the soldiers. Contrary to Iraqi propoaganda the US soldiers are not targetting civilians. They are getting themselves injured and killed in many cases going out of their way to avoid civilian casualties. That's not to say however they mistakes won't be made. And if it turns out someone didn't act quick enough and that caused or contributed to this tragedy they should be punished accordingly. But that doesn't make it a war crime.

I wonder if anyone has ever done a study of the number of French/Belgian/etc civilians inadvertantly killed by Allied actions during the liberation of Europe in WWII. Might be interesting, if nothing else for context.

Geoschmo

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yea you did. And not not only that now you've made another post that appears to justify their actions as it is the 'only way to make their point'</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you actually read my post.

I said that i condemn all kinds of terrorist action, ALSO GWB actions...

And i didn't say/justify, i ask myself the question and compared, anyway... one war is enough (to much).

Peace,
R.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...round/oicw.htm

check out this piece of hardware.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/daily...927233,00.html

Is this true that the USA is setting up their own team of "WMD" inspectors...... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

And I also wonder if the future of Iraq will be like Afghan. or Algeria ??

Which one is a worse future... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Somalia might be a better comparison, actually. They are all the same 'ethnicity' but still fighting among themselves. The Kurds all have hatred for the Sunni tribes who have ruled with Saddam, so they won't want to join in a single government with them. But they also have internal hatreds and will continue to fight amongst themselves. The Shiia Arabs in the south of Iraq are the same. Their internal rivalries will become apparent soon after Saddam is really gone. Given the number of weapons hidden all over the country their will be a dozen new internal fractures within months of the fall of Baghdad. That date is not as close as the war planners had been claiming, though. They will have the city surrounded soon, and the arrival of the heavy armor division in a week or two will make it a tstorng seieg, but Saddamhas been planning for his and stored up lots of supplies. It might be next spring before the city actually falls -- if GWB can keep his **** together that long and maintain the military expedition.

I might be glad that GWB has obviously doomed himself politically, but it's going to be a horribly high price to pay to get the neo-fascists out of office.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

33 civilians killed by bombing today, mostly women and children. more than a hundred others have been injured.

M Bush and M Blair, you are murderers. If there a justice in this world, you will be sued for that.
All those who have voted for you, all those who support your politic, all those who agree to pay for that dirty war are accomplice.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There is no justice, there is only judical system. And they will walk away, just read my signature http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, it is contracted to a subsidiary of Halliburton of wich Dick Cheney was the chairman before joining Bush team. It is not about USA security, it is not even about oil. It is about personal greed of few Americans. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">At a previous job, I worked with an engineer who used to work for Alliant. He worked on the fuse for the OICW "bullet". A very interesting technical challenge, to say the least.

He said he saw the OICW test fired at a couple of dummies situated behind a protective barrier. They programmed the bullets to burst just beyond the barrier. According to him, the results were... quite gruesome. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

--Raynfala

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Bu the way, if you think it's anti-war french propaganda :

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...1503&ncid=1478

I don't think sky news speak of such "insignifant" details. It's what the White house calls "collateral damages"

This war makes me sick.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Unfortunately - I am not so sure about that - I listen to conservative radio programs and most of them say that what's going on in Iraq was intended - and they are blaming any problems they may have on French or Turkish intransigence.

First of all the Turks didn't let us use Turkey in '91 when we had some moral authority and real diplomacy then. So any plan that involved invading from Turkey was wishful thinking and inherently flawed to begin with.

Also Rumsfield's plan obviously screwed up the supply issue - it's not a good thing when an M1A1 is sitting in the desert with no gas.

They also underestimated Iraqi nationalism - I saw a picture of the "sinister" militia and most of them looked like civilians to me - I mean apparently these people can't hit the side of a barn so it suggests to me that most of the people picked up a gun pretty recently and have no training. What people forget is that the Iraqis got rid of the Brits 40 or so years ago and every Iraqi child is taught of THAT liberation so they are never going to accept reimposition of what they perceive as an attempt at colonial rule.

[ April 01, 2003, 19:26: Message edited by: rextorres ]

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Tesco, Raynfala:

Please start another thread for your discussions of how cool weapons are. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I suppose your vast experience in military logistics tells you that? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

The logistical train is catching up with the forward group. That's why they paused a few days ago.

It's not simply a matter of driving through a sector with a resupply depot, after all. (Or even fleeting 'tanker' ships with other ships.)

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

So is Saddam even still alive? From the bits of news I've read it seems that since that first day there has not been any statement from him that proves he is. It does seem a bit strange that he has aired speeches that, if I am to believe the news stories, contain nothing that proves they weren't pre-taped. (ie no mention of any specific events)

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

From what I heard today, the statement given at noon EST today was dated 3-29-03. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Worse than that--in an earlier speech he praised one of the southern forces that had already surrendered!

I highly suspect (although we may not know for quite a while) that he is dead or gravely injured.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, it is contracted to a subsidiary of Halliburton of wich Dick Cheney was the chairman before joining Bush team. It is not about USA security, it is not even about oil. It is about personal greed of few Americans. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">LINK!

[ April 01, 2003, 23:05: Message edited by: Sinapus ]

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actual probable reason: The driver of the van intended for the van to be shot up and thus feed the flames of negative opinion in the world. Stop signals the world over are the same Primitive. When a man with a gun holds his hand up and then fires into the air, you stop. Where on earth does that mean "Keep going"?

Most likely a war crime. But one commited by the driver of the van, not the soldiers at the roadblock. Purposly taking a van full of innocents into harms way and then acting in a manner likely to get them injured or killed is no different then pulling the trigger yourself.

Geoschmo

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

DavidG
There is no such thing as unacceptable collateral damage. Its either a crime or it is what should be expected and therefore is acceptable.

Everybody knows Saddam is a war criminal and the number one bad guy. Please do not take every criticism of USA or US forces as support for Saddam.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

According to the terrorists. From the 93 bombings. No one is innocent. With the power of democracy it is you who has the power to vote in a govn't and support their foreign policy. Or something like that... Perhaps some one can find the complete quote and post it.

One must fight with what ever means they have. Where I was lucky to get out of it is well understood that if your on the other side of the fence your the enemy. To ignore that can be costly. So the people have choosen to continuely vote in more and more moderate politicians to slowly and surely change the political climate. It is working but takes years.

I guess I am trying to say I understand that statement. Do I agree with it. No. But I understand it. And perhaps when the next elections come around i will voice my opinion that the Middle East issue should be a topic of dicussion so I can formulate my opinions and cast my vote for the party that matches those opinions. If I do not like the results. I can always vote again down the road...

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That seems to be a common problem. Official viewpoint: the world is black and white. Divided into good and evil, and of course we are on the good side, and everyone who does not support us without questioning is on the other side.
It is not that simple, cowboys. Though I wish it were.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

http://www.iiss.org/news-more.php?it...bb3fb6856a3a91

an interesting link about the tatical use of suicide bombers

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Geo
“Interesting” theory. I have not seen any pictures of that actual roadblock yet, but it is not always obvious where you are supposed to stop. If the cover-up is not too big, we may learn something later today.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I suppose your vast experience in military logistics tells you that? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

The logistical train is catching up with the forward group. That's why they paused a few days ago.

It's not simply a matter of driving through a sector with a resupply depot, after all. (Or even fleeting 'tanker' ships with other ships.)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So your saying that they planned for the tanks to be 50 miles from Bagdad short on fuel and for the soldiers to get caught short on rations!?

I'm not a logistical expert no, but it doesn't take a military genius to figure out that it was not intended that way and that it's not a good thing. We won't know why until it's all over, but my guess is the "unwargamed" militia is what has caused all the supply problems.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There is a theory that the reason that Iraqis have had such a coherent resistance is that he's either gone or too incapacitated to be involved.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

primitive : Sorry...

David G : I do not think it matters if S.H. is dead or alive.. It would change nothing. What must be done will be done reguardless of who is on the receiving end.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Russian military intel update: War in Iraq, April 1

http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_art...d=1398&lang=en

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

I just hope the Coalition will make swift progress now. Every day increases the suffering of the bystanders. Regarding the firing incident with the killed family: It’s a tragedy but we will see more of this and I don’t think you can blame either side to much. I don’t know if I as the driver would have stopped the car if someone fires a weapon around me. I don’t know if he fires upon me or just the air and to stop and see what is fired upon might not be a good idea – it could be me!
On the other hand, after 4 comrades were killed by a car bomb and some big car is heading my way without stopping after I have signalled a “Stop!”, I might just as well fire at the car. Better them then me and my comrades. Really, I don’t want to be in their shoes down there…

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hahaha, do you really believe that?
That is just part of the cover-up!

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Map of area around Baghdad, and Coalition advance
Advance on Baghdad

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ok, this one I can't let pass. Logically, every weapon system (except perhaps the fist) ever used in warfare from the dawn of time had to be used for the first time in battle at some time. Perhaps we should arm our troops only with stone knives and clubs to keep things fair.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So your saying that they planned for the tanks to be 50 miles from Bagdad short on fuel and for the soldiers to get caught short on rations!?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You've never studied logistics, or spoken with someone familiar with the subject, right?

Shortages are indeed expected. Same with maintenance failures on armored vehicles.

Quote:

I'm not a logistical expert no, but it doesn't take a military genius to figure out that it was not intended that way and that it's not a good thing. We won't know why until it's all over, but my guess is the "unwargamed" militia is what has caused all the supply problems.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It seems to take an armchair general, sitting in front of a computer thousands of kilometers away from the front, who has an axe to grind to come to conclusions based on ignorance and what you think it should be like.

Even if the "unwargamed" militia hadn't shown up, they'd still have to pause periodically so the trucks carrying fuel, beans and ammunition could catch up. (Not to mention let the troops get some sleep.) Which, of course, would lead you to presume incompetence in the planners, right?

Btw, there's a wide gulf between "this was not in the plan" and ["WE'RE DOOMED, MAN! QUAGMIRED, MAN! SUPPLY LINE CUT, MAN!" "STAY CALM MOMMY, I MEAN, SQUAT!"]

[ April 02, 2003, 23:12: Message edited by: Sinapus ]

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Sometimes the weather does not cooperate. Blinding dust storms can hold up supply lines.
Meanwhile the troops need food and lots of water while they wait it out.
Waiting it out will unbalance the supplies, more ammo and fuel but less water and food.
The enemy did not cooperate either, and harrased the supply lines.

I thought the plan was flexible. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
So if things go well, the forces can jump at an opportunity.
If there are problems, the forces can sit tight or regroup, and try again later.

I do not see a real screw up here. Of course, they wouldn't tell us if there was. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ April 02, 2003, 23:05: Message edited by: Wardad ]

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hahaha, do you really believe that?
That is just part of the cover-up!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That would have to be the worst cover-up story I have ever heard.
Kinda like signing a confession to cover-up guilt.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Seems like everyone and their Grandma has a complete copy of the US war plan. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif Can anyone tell me where I can get it? Might be a good read. Gee you'd think they'd have security for important things like that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It was on CNN Last night, and Jeraldo Rivera outlined it in the sand. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Strains of war test the allies
http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_art...d=1413&lang=en

Family deaths at checkpoint fuel fury and mistrust
http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_art...d=1414&lang=en

Myers, Rumsfeld Lash Out at War Plan Critics
http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_art...d=1391&lang=en

Iraq, Testing Ground for US Hi-tech Weapons
http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_art...d=1395&lang=en

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Well they should be right now. A three pronged attack is under way.

I do not have a map to link to... But it will be worth dicussing.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Well guys and gals, the cat is about to be out of the bag. First let’s note that the LA Times just got burned for using doctored photos on the front page. Photos that were altered to show the US military in a bad light, when in fact just the opposite was occurring. Now back to the cat; CNN and MS-NBC are not showing things as they are! These terrible battles that were going to kill Americans by the thousands are in fact human wave assaults. Why do they only say that these Guards divisions are just taken out? Why do they not show how one sided the fight really is? They started the war with a reporting plan of their own, and now they run stories about how FUBAR’d the Army’s plan has become. I think that the networks are the ones with FUBAR’d plan. A plan that they used in the sixties, and grew to love. Well this is not the sixties, and this is not a police action run by McNamara and Johnson from the White House. This is not McNamara trying to send Messages with measured escalation. This is a combined arms offensive such has not been mounted in the history of man.

Soldiers from the 3rdInf are reporting mass charges against their armor. They are describing seas of body parts, yes parts, knee deep. They are using dump body trucks to haul them away. Published kill numbers for the 3rd are less than 50 KIA and 8,000 to 10,000 Iraqis KIA. These guys are massing up and trying to over-run the US positions. 300 men at a time. What a waste, this in and of itself gives us a look at what Iraq had become. To throw away the Last of your Army like this indicates that they have no intention of achieving victory, it indicates that they are going to try to go out with glory. Perhaps glory in the eyes of their god, but dead is dead. And dead from charging M-1s and Bradley’s with RPG’s is just plain stupid. Personally, were I there, I would be cleaning the sand out of my NBC gear.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Thermo, I hate to say this, but:

Link, please?

I haven't heard any of this (not that I've caught any news since ~noon Wed.); and I'd like the opportunity to read it for myself.

That said, it does indeed appear much of the press had a predetermined idea of what would happen. Many of them cut their journalistic teeth on Vietnam, and would love to have that power and notoriety back. Unfortunately for them, it's not going to happen while ~75%+ of the Americans are for finishing what we started, which I think they're aware of.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Thermodyne, I just don't get it. I've never seen anything that ever hinted at a possible US loss. Was someone doubting that the US Army wasn't capabable of killing thousands upon thousands of Iraqis with little risk to their own? Remember Gulf War 1? Over 100,000 dead Iraqi soldiers to the loss of 148 on the US side. Tens of thousands of soldiers died while fleeing Kuwait along the highways to Basra, defenceless and systematically killed. At least when the soldiers are charging suicidally at US positions they're not getting shot in the back.

As for the journalists, who really gives a damn. I watched a bizzare US news program the other day (I think it was ABC) where some blonde host was aruging with an Al-Jazeer journalist, complaining about the bias of the coverage. He pointed out the bias of the American coverage and the arguement went on. I kept thinking three words, "pot", "kettle", "black".
They are all being fed lies from both sides, what really happened won't really be known for several years. Until then just read/watch your bias of choice and cheer your team on.

Askan

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So your saying that they planned for the tanks to be 50 miles from Bagdad short on fuel and for the soldiers to get caught short on rations!?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You've never studied logistics, or spoken with someone familiar with the subject, right?

Shortages are indeed expected. Same with maintenance failures on armored vehicles.

Quote:

I'm not a logistical expert no, but it doesn't take a military genius to figure out that it was not intended that way and that it's not a good thing. We won't know why until it's all over, but my guess is the "unwargamed" militia is what has caused all the supply problems.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It seems to take an armchair general, sitting in front of a computer thousands of kilometers away from the front, who has an axe to grind to come to conclusions based on ignorance and what you think it should be like.

Even if the "unwargamed" militia hadn't shown up, they'd still have to pause periodically so the trucks carrying fuel, beans and ammunition could catch up. (Not to mention let the troops get some sleep.) Which, of course, would lead you to presume incompetence in the planners, right?

Btw, there's a wide gulf between "this was not in the plan" and ["WE'RE DOOMED, MAN! QUAGMIRED, MAN! SUPPLY LINE CUT, MAN!" "STAY CALM MOMMY, I MEAN, SQUAT!"]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There is no point in being hostile - I assume I am getting the same news that you do and I've come up with different conclusions (unless of course you have insider information).

Okay then let's just say that they planned to run out of gas and supplies. How would you account for a plan that called for invading through Turkey - when the Turks didn't allow U.S. troops in the first war!? What about Iraqi nationalism!?

Also the reason that this war plan issue is big news in the first place is because the politicians are making such strong denials. They should have just admitted that they didn't account for some things and moved on.