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- - Units seldom used. (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=18241)

Re: Units seldom used.

I think it's a testimony to the raw niftiness of Dominions II that anytime somebody thinks something is useless, somebody else disagrees with their own reasons for what they use them for.

Re: Units seldom used.

Seems I finally managed to create a somewhat interesting topic. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Thanks for all the comments so far.

Good to hear that C'Tis Falchioneer and Elite Warrior got their uses. If a bit more specialised one then I hoped for. C'Tis is my favorite nation after Atlantis. Trouble is that I get a lot more power for my gold by simply going for heavy infantery and a morale boosting priest than using these two units. Can you give me some tips for proper deployment since the problem I have is that they die far faster then I can accept. Elite warriors can be kept on hold and attack rearmost to make a flanking manouver I guess.

I must have really bad luck with Jotun Hurlers. I would never imagine these guys Lasting one combat turn against heavy cavalery. They either get swarmed, since they walk so close to melee range, or they toss their boulders into the backs of their fellow giants (nothing new but these missiles are way too dangerous to allow friendly fire).

Thanks for the revelation that Preatorian Guards don't always come with an affliction. I must have been unlucky the first few times I checked them and assumed they always came crippled.

I'm sorry Fahdiz but I don't agree. Spider Riders are too lightly armored to Last very long. They are essentially basic Machaka archers with the bonus of turning into Giant Spiders when they die (though archer deployment means they will rarely reach their foes before the battle is decided). In theory good but since I can not replace the archer I get a Giant Spider, whose a melee fighter. It's not that the unit doesn't have its use. It's the fact that the Spider Knight unit renders it obsolete in my eyes.

I'm glad you found Revelers useful. Trouble is that when I group them with Satyrs myself what happens is that the nonrevelers rout leaving the berserkers alone to be slaughtered. But then again that means the enemy is distracted long enough for the other satyrs to make good their escape.

Re: Units seldom used.

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Originally posted by Wauthan:
Abyssia - Humanbreds and Salamanders. The former is simply a lite Version of the basic troops and the latter is way expensive for it's punch. They're sole saving grace is a two point move but what's the point of being speedy if you can't actually beat anything you catch up with?

Salamanders are useless with their current price / stats, IMO. More HP and NP or a lower price would be nice. Humanbreds are decent... a bit pricey, but good arrow bait (tower shields) / flankers (faster than Abysians) for Abysia, and good commander guards (2 strat move). I don't build many of them, but I always build some.

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Arcosephale - Slingers and Light Cavalery. Slingers are waste of gold, which explains why they make out your PD. Even with spellsupport shortbow archers beat the snot out of them. Light Cavalery is expensive, fragile and inaccurate. Even if they get around the infantery they can not take down the commanders.

Slingers are vastly overpriced, but decent for patrolling and fodder for mind bLast / hellbind heart / extra targets versus "fire archers" orders. But archers are better in all those roles. Slingers should be 5 gold.

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Atlantis - Spearmen. Sure they are cheap but I rather buy 5 reefwarriors over 10 spearmen. The former might Last the battle atleast.

Unshielded spearmen are useless, IMO. Shielded ones are nice... reef warriors do not have shields. I only buy Coral Guard or shielded spearmen, never Reef Warriors.

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Caelum Return of the Raptors - Raptor and Ravenguard have so far failed to prove why I should ever buy these units instead of the basic troops. Even when modding I could not come up with a balanced idea to "save" them.

Make them -2 gold, and other units +1 gold.

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C'Tis - Militia, Falchioneers, Slave and Elite Warriors. Militia suffers from the ordinary quantity does not beat quality problem. Falchioneers die far too fast and kill far too little, much like the Slave and Elite Warriors. The other C'Tis troops are remarkably more useful than these.

I find the elite warriors very powerful. As for falchioneers... I suggest you use my "PrePatch" bugfix mod; their ambidextrity is insufficient otherwise. The bugfix mod only gives them +1 attack, though - +2 would be (arguably) acceptable.

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Jotunheim - Jotun Huskarls and Hurlers. 1 point better morale verus 3 points lower protection. If I'm short on gold and resources I'll go for javelintossers (who got the range of a bow). Hurlers do a lot of damage yes? But the range is so short they are usually enter melee before throwing boulders and if they do those highdamage stones knocks down your own troops at an alarming rate. Again I go for Javelineers. Or the coolest unit ever created, the Mooseriders.

Huskarls are indefensibly worthless. They cost more and are worse than the 'non-handpicked' Jotuns. 33 gold, +1 attack, +1 HP, and a jotun sword instead of an axe would make them useful.

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Machaka - Milita and Spider Riders. Spider Riders are not worth the price of 5 regular archers nor do they have anything like the staying power of a Spider Knight. When do you build these?

They are too expensive, but nice skirmish units... set them on "fire closest" and they can web a big group of melee units. Keep your own units out of the way.

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Man - Militia and Slingers.

Fine, just not cost effective, and need to be rebalanced (-2 gold).

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Marignon - You get three units with increasingly longer weapons. I can see the use of only one of them. What am I missing here?

Which one? Swordsmen and pikemen are both quite good...

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Pangea - When do you build Revelers? I never found their use.

Pan's only buyable footsoldiers that don't run away when wounded=)

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Summons - Soulless, when you can get longdeads that actually hit something? Corpse Construct, you get a really expensive Soulless for those precious airgems.

Soulless are good fodder, as you get more of them than longdead. Against vastly more powerful elite units, both longdead and soulless are powerless... and thus, soulless (higher hp AND you generally get more of them) use up more enemy fatigue.

Corpse constructs are useless, IMO, though I've never used one (except in the combat sim). Regeneration and/or triple HP would be interesting, but right now, they're similar to Soulless Giants, except not free.

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Iron Pigs, well they're cute and all but a size three trampler isn't really worth the magic.

I don't know... backed by fanatacism or berserk, they could destroy most human-sized armies. Remember, they have ironskin in addition to trample, so are mainly vulnerable to morale loss. But that's theoretical; I haven't used them.

Re: Units seldom used.

I've found some success with Iron Pigs when casting berserk on them. Trampling units are really useful when your forces are all bunched together against your enemies bunched together forces - they spread everything out so that more of your guys can get in there and attack.

Re: Units seldom used.

Quote:

Originally posted by Aikamun:
Praetorian Guard (Broken Empire): Only tested for ten turns, but afflictions were generated on only 25% of those recruited. They were worth the cost, especially with strategic move two and their high protection / defense. Someone else may have more accurate data on actual affliction rate over a longer period.

Aikamun

I have experienced affliction rates of between 1 out of 5 and 1 out of 4. That's not that bad IMO. What I use them for? For their intended purpose: as bodyguards of the pretender and other important mages/priests.

Re: Units seldom used.

Berserking Iron Pigs eh? Wonder why I never thought about mixing in a nature mage? I never summoned them with anyone except Ulm which created the effect that a lot of squeeling iron anger got routed right back into my own forces.

Your modding ideas are welcome Saber Cherry. Too tell you the truth I already altered all the units I've complained about here but it's good to see alternate ideas so I can minimize the "cheating". I prefer to run my games unaltered of course. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

By the way, what are your thoughts about the Villian unit? Stealthy is good I know but I never use them if I don't happen to build a fortress on that site.

[ March 10, 2004, 20:58: Message edited by: Wauthan ]

Re: Units seldom used.

Quote:

Originally posted by Wauthan:
I'm sorry Fahdiz but I don't agree. Spider Riders are too lightly armored to Last very long. They are essentially basic Machaka archers with the bonus of turning into Giant Spiders when they die (though archer deployment means they will rarely reach their foes before the battle is decided). In theory good but since I can not replace the archer I get a Giant Spider, whose a melee fighter. It's not that the unit doesn't have its use. It's the fact that the Spider Knight unit renders it obsolete in my eyes.

No, you raise a good point. Especially since Machaka's archers are so darn cheap and can be easily massed under Sorcs, Black Sorcs, and Hoplite Commanders. Although I have found that if some light cavalry happens to make it past your main force and beeline for your archers, the Spider Riders do Last longer and prevent the insta-rout, thanks to their mounts.

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I'm glad you found Revelers useful. Trouble is that when I group them with Satyrs myself what happens is that the nonrevelers rout leaving the berserkers alone to be slaughtered. But then again that means the enemy is distracted long enough for the other satyrs to make good their escape.

Heh. Pretty much the only thing I've ever been able to use any Satyrs for is "distraction"...that, and catching arrows with their eye sockets. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Hey...at least they're cheap. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

While we're on the subject of Pangaea, do you (or anyone else) feel like Minotaurs ought to get a slightly better attack skill? I know that they can trample, but if they come up against anything larger than an ant they start looking like the "strikeout kings".

Re: Units seldom used.

I agree about the minotaurs Fahdiz. I can't understand why they got the same scores as militia. Removing their trampling ability and raising their attack and defence was the first mod I did in this game. Gave them gore as well to reflect all those evenings in D&D when my characters found himself dangling from a minotaur horn. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif I like them a lot better this way but then again I know others are big fans of trampling units.

Re: Units seldom used.

Quote:

Originally posted by Wauthan:
I agree about the minotaurs Fahdiz. I can't understand why they got the same scores as militia. Removing their trampling ability and raising their attack and defence was the first mod I did in this game. Gave them gore as well to reflect all those evenings in D&D when my characters found himself dangling from a minotaur horn. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif I like them a lot better this way but then again I know others are big fans of trampling units.

I like the trample (and I REALLY like your Gore idea), although I don't necessarily feel like standard Minos need more defense (that's what War Minos are for, after all http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )...I just think they should cost more gold and be able to actually hit the broad side of a barn.

Re: Units seldom used.

Great thread. Sorry I didnt get in on it sooner since one of my favorite things to do is to explore "useless" elements of the game. There are 2 areas which continually please me about this game.

One is the fact that any "this is a game-killer tactic" gets explored (usually by the formula and testing-types). It usually gets downgraded to "useful in certain situations or playing styles" or in some rare cases gets nerfed by the Dev team.

The other is that any "why would anyone use this" gets explored (usually the crazy short-attention-span hacker types). It usually gets upgraded to "useful in certain situations or playing styles" or in some rare cases gets boosted by the Dev team.

[ March 10, 2004, 21:18: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]