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Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale

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Couple in a big army? Meh. Chariots are one of the only saving graces for GE. The Myrmidons can't be gathered enough to make as much of an impact as the Chariots. Yes, they have weaknesses, but as soon as you counter that weakness, Chariots will mow down a good % of other national troops but don't have the inherent weaknesses of Elephants

Well I do recall saying that I didn't think they needed a boost at all, Zen. You seem to favor them more than I, but I think we're agreed that a strong, unroutable national trampler would be a little too strong.

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"Chariots are no good when the unit most commonly to counter them is around". And 10 Chariots buffed by Mystics will stomp the hell out of those Knights

And those 5 knights buffed by Inquisitors? It's hard for me to imagine a scenario where chariots charge free into any decent MP player's backfield without first meeting some kind of mounted reistance.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale

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Originally posted by Blitz:
Well I do recall saying that I didn't think they needed a boost at all, Zen. You seem to favor them more than I, but I think we're agreed that a strong, unroutable national trampler would be a little too strong.

That's exactly what you can make them. Unbreakable, 20 Prot, Air Shielded, Lucky, Ethereal Trampling Crew with decent MR. That is one of Arco's strengths.

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And those 5 knights buffed by Inquisitors? It's hard for me to imagine a scenario where chariots charge free into any decent MP player's backfield without first meeting some kind of mounted reistance.

Buffed by Inquisitors? Meaning with Sermons and Fantatisims? Or do you mean Grand Masters, with Luck and Ethereality?

It's happens quite a bit for me. They might meet resistance some of the time, but this isn't a flaw in the Chariots, but a flaw in your opponent. Chariots move fast enough and over infantry to get to a back row quite quickly. My only issue is their fatigue, which when I play GE I circumvent by making sure I can at least a few priestesses casting Relief.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale

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Originally posted by Blitz:
What then, is GE's focus in your opinion? Losing your best mage and gaining a great researcher?

Magical smack-down. Whether that be battle magic, summons, or forging items.

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In case you haven't noticed, GA Arcoscephale has no abilities in Blood or Death. This means that unlike Mictan, they cannot hope to summon as good an army as mictan could.

First, it's Golden Era, not Golden Age. Second, no, they don't get as good summons as Mictlan can, but they do get better national troops. So I see no reason why GE Arco should get summons 'as good as' Mictlan.

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Earth summons are good, but the better ones are 5 earth, and your mages rarely come with more than 2E. Statues and clockwork horrors are nice, but they aren't devils and wights. The theme of GA seems to be research and flying creatures.

They certainly research better than anyone else in the game, and get _the_ most versatile mage in the game to make use of it.

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Ok let's look at how I turned the Shedu into the hands down best pretender in the game shall we?

First, I did not say he became the best pretender in the game. Simply that he doesn't need to be altered in the least.

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If you believe these bonuses raise this horrible pretender chassis to the level of a Virtue, Nataraja, or Ghost King,

For early taking of Independents, I'd rather have the Shedu than ANY of these (yes, including the Nataraja).

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I respectfully doubt your grasp of the game. The facts are, you can buy a Manticore and give it Earth/Astral 1 and still have a cheaper chassis with 50 point path costs than the Shedu. Let's recap.

This fact is also wrong. Ignoring the GROSS hp difference between the two, I don't think you know how buying paths work.

If all you want is level 1 Earth and Astral, sure, the Manticore is 25 points cheaper. The stat differences are rather large (you cannot ignore the 85 base hp difference). Getting back to paths, though, if you intend to increase the magic paths at all, the Shedu will gain points relative to the Manticore. Say that you want 2 Earth and 2 Astral on the Manticore and the Shedu. For the Manticore, this comes to:

50 + 50 + 16 + 16 = 132 points.

For the Shedu, this comes to:

0 + 0 + 8 + 8 = 16 points. Add in the 125 base cost, and you get 141.

The savings you made on the Manticore have basically vanished at this point, and no one is going to take a combat Pretender with only 2 Astral.

You seem to have also missed the point that the Shedu is a size-6 trampler. It can easily kill more people per turn than the Manticore, thus routing people faster, thus taking less damage (and he has more HPs to start).

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1) The manticore also flies and has limited item slots.

Which is why I think it's useful at least for a comparison.

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2) It costs 0 points, not 125

For no magic.

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3) You can get the same Astral/Earth levels on a manticore, and save 25 points... while retaining 50 point paths in other areas.

The savings is only if you stay at 1, which is not MP-viable.

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4) While having lower HP and 6 protection vs 8, the manticore has higher strength, attack, defense, precision, in addition to 100% poison resistance as well as a poisonous stinger and bite instead of a hoof.

And the Shedu is a flying trampler.

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Ask yourself... how good is a manticore? Would you use a manticore with 18 defense instead of 12? That's what this "new" Shedu is. A manticore with 18 defense. God forbid this monster be unleashed on the Dom 2 community! [/QB]

With all due respect, you've missed several things in your argument. Considering what you've missed, I wonder if you've ever even used a Shedu.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale

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With all due respect, you've missed several things in your argument. Considering what you've missed, I wonder if you've ever even used a Shedu

I'm not sure if you are trolling or just being argumentitive, but at this point I'll just suggest you not use the mod =).

I think most players would agree with my assesment of the Shedu as an absolutely horrible example of a national pretender, but you clearly are not one of them and seem determined not to be convinced otherwise.

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Originally posted by Blitz:
Well I do recall saying that I didn't think they needed a boost at all, Zen. You seem to favor them more than I, but I think we're agreed that a strong, unroutable national trampler would be a little too strong.
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That's exactly what you can make them. Unbreakable, 20 Prot, Air Shielded, Lucky, Ethereal Trampling Crew with decent MR. That is one of Arco's strengths.

I find this strategy to be very effective with Elephants, but less so with chariots. I did post a rather long newbie tutorial on base Arcoscephale that went into rough detail about this.

I'd be more interested to know your views on the wind rider modifications, Zen. Since it sounds like you've played a lot of GA in multiplayer, I'd like to hear what you think. I did read a few Posts where you shared my views on the wind rider vs valkrie issue, but do you think +awe on a bless troop is potentially game-breaking or do you like the change?

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale

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Originally posted by Blitz:
I'd be more interested to know your views on the wind rider modifications, Zen. Since it sounds like you've played a lot of GA in multiplayer, I'd like to hear what you think. I did read a few Posts where you shared my views on the wind rider vs valkrie issue, but do you think +awe on a bless troop is potentially game-breaking or do you like the change?

I was trying to avoid that issue. I do think the Wind Rider is not cost effective. I do think that they are strong with vast potential to do quite a bit in a game if you are able to use them right.

I can't say as I think Awe is the best move in the world. Because Awe is very strong against independants but as the game progresses it becomes more and more useless. I also feel that awe should be limited so that it is not so very common. If anything I'd like to give the Icarians Awe +0 so they might be useful for their cost and lowering the cost of the Wind Riders to something more feasible to even bless (100 is my gut instinct).

One other thing, while I think giving Wind Lords magic might be good, I don't know if it should be air. Then they would look and feel sort of like Vans. (Which GE already feels somewhat like already)

Edit: This might be because whenever I think of any pegasus type of thing, I think of Clash of the Titans. I saw it too mucha s I kid I think and it has distorted my perception of a few key mythological creatures (Medusa's and Pegasus as well as whatever Caliban was).

[ June 18, 2004, 16:40: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale

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I'm not sure if you are trolling or just being argumentitive, but at this point I'll just suggest you not use the mod =).

I think it's safe to say that I don't troll, having been given ample opportunity and not taking it. About the most trollish thing I've done in this thread is to point out that it's Golden Era, not Golden Age (which I have now done twice).

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I think most players would agree with my assesment of the Shedu as an absolutely horrible example of a national pretender, but you clearly are not one of them and seem determined not to be convinced otherwise.

No, I'm not going to be convinced with the arguments you've put forward so far, especially when they get basic facts about the game wrong (such as how buying paths work).

To be specific, if you have no levels in a path, the first level will cost the Path cost listed for the Pretender. The second level will cost 16 points. If you have 1 in a Path already, the second level (the first one you purchase) will cost 8 points.

To be fair, though, my initial post was reacting more to other people's comments about giving the Shedu EEESSS or EESS, which is completely unbalanced. Your mod, as I see it, wouldn't change much, but I shirk away from giving a Pretender with _that_ many HPs and _that_ much combat potential a base Dominion of 4.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale

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I can't say as I think Awe is the best move in the world. Because Awe is very strong against independants but as the game progresses it becomes more and more useless. I also feel that awe should be limited so that it is not so very common. If anything I'd like to give the Icarians Awe +0 so they might be useful for their cost and lowering the cost of the Wind Riders to something more feasible to even bless (100 is my gut instinct).

One other thing, while I think giving Wind Lords magic might be good, I don't know if it should be air. Then they would look and feel sort of like Vans. (Which GE already feels somewhat like already)

You are definately right about awe having diminishing returns, but as you know it's incredibly powerful against independants and many nationals. I'm playing a game in another window now and my small group of 4 wind lords are doing very well in early expansion. Without awe they die far too easily for a 125 gold unit.

And you are definately right about the Wind Lord resembling Vans (and Tuatha), but if you are going to give them magic, but not air... then what? After all, it's a Wind Lord =). I'm not sure any of the other paths would be appropriate for thematic reasons. The new lords are pretty damn impressive. I've only recruited one, and he's easily as good as a Vanadrott... but obviously a Hangadrott (with soul vortex), or Tuatha (regeneration, elemental fortitude) is going to be better at the same price. The WL does fly with a lance and awe, however. I was hesitant to make him as powerful as either of the existing air SC's, and purposely overcosted him in relation.

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I also feel that awe should be limited so that it is not so very common

You are right that the devs purposely made awe a very "special" trait. I believe only the dryad hoplite has it on a national troop. I think it's more thematicly apropriate on a pegasus than it would be on a lot of other troops, however. I tried to pick an ability that strengthened the unit while fitting the flavor of the text and picture. Pegasus are pretty =).

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale

Clearly there is a difference of opinion here http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

But I have to say that I tend to agree that GE Arco is underpowered. Why don't the people who support GE Arco as a viable theme just list out thier strategy. early, mid, late game, etc. Be specific and if it looks good on paper and works in some test games then the subject can be laid to rest....

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale

While I'm not an expert on Golden Era, and I know the main subject are wind riders, I think you could have taken a better approach to myrmidons. Myrmidons are supposed to be soldiers who always follow their superior's orders (I don't know if that definition evolved in time or was a trait that the classic mythological myrmidons had). I think they should be given 50 morale to make them powerful tanks. I think a strategy would be to have myrmidon stand in front of the battle with attack closest, while chariots in the back hold and attack. The myrmidon fight enemy infantry to a standstill, since they are powerful defensively that way and still have crap attacks. When the chariots move out, they get to make their attack before the enemy could respond, since this is a turnbased game and they've already wasted a round of swings on your rock hard myrmidon.

On the issue of Wind Riders, we musn't forget that they can fly AND have a lance. Doesn't that make them similar to a nuclear warhead against spell dependent SC's?

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale

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On the issue of Wind Riders, we musn't forget that they can fly AND have a lance. Doesn't that make them similar to a nuclear warhead against spell dependent SC's?

Most SC's are erthreal or wear a robe of erthrealness, so it's not as effective as it would first seem. But yes, they still pretty good in that role.

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I agree somewhat with your logic here. My concept of a myrmidon is an elite, skilled, brave warrior... who unfortunately has a crappy sword and antique armor. I gave them a fairly significant morale boost as it is. I think the developers want to reserve ultra-high morale for mindless units such as undead... and berserkers. I had toyed with giving the myrmidons a berserker flag, but didn't feel it was either needed or appropriate to the theme.