Golden Age Arcoscephale

[Blitz]

I've played this theme extensively in SP, but in my opinion it loses far too much over vanilla Arco to be a viable choice in a competitive game. The theme is very appealing at first glance, but many of it's units are overcosted and underpowered. Let's take a quick look at some of the changes over regular arcoscephale.

1) Loses Hoplite, Hypaspist, Elephant, Philosoper, Strategos, Heavy Cavalry, Bad Chariot, and the Hoplite and Hypaspist Commanders.

2) Gains Myrmidion, Icaryd, Wind Rider, Wind Lord, Chariot, Chariot Archer, Engineer, Philosoper, Icarid Champion and Sceptic

3) Also has access to two new heroes in the Daiadalos and Asterios. Their starting site no longer produces SSSSN, but rather AAEES.

So we see that GA Arcoscephale loses all it's good military troops (Elephant, Hoplite, Hypaspist, Heart Companion), and these are replaced with the Myrmidion, Chariots, and Wind Riders. Chariots are just plain bad. The attrition rate is awful. Those, and Myrmidions are terribly resource-intensive under a sloth forced theme. The chariot archer has perhaps the worst precison of a ranged unit while being one of the most expensive. The wind riders are good units, but they are not much better than Valkries, while twice as much.


Wind Rider 13hp 17ar 12mr 11str 12at 16df
Valkrie 12hp 13ar 14mr 11str 13at 15df

The wind rider has the additional bonus of a lance, but the other stats are comparable. Also note the Valkrie has 25 stealth and that slightly good ability called glamour. IMHO these are two comparable units. The Wind Rider is superior, but not by a large margin, yet costs 125 to the valkrie's 60

The icarid is much cheaper than the Valkrie, but is extremely difficult to mass, costing 28 resources and being capitol-only. It's stats are also not comparable.

The myrmidion isn't a bad unit, but again it's very difficult to mass due to it's high resource cost under sloth. Additionally they are armed with short swords. Combine that with a whopping 8 encumberance, and it's unlikely they can stand up to commparably priced infantry.

Myrmidion 12hp 17ar 10mr 11str 12at 11df Short sword
Man at Arms 11hp 15ar 10mr 10str 11at 12df Broad Sword
Blood of humans Abyssan HI 12hp 18ar 11mr 11str 10at 9df Morningstar
Swamp Guard 12hp 18ar 12mr 10str 11at 10df Falchion
Ermor/Plylithum Triarius 10hp 18ar 10mr 10str 11at 12df Long Spear
Tien Chi Imperial Guard 10hp 15ar 10mr 10str 11at 12df Falchionh
Zweihander 12hp 19ar 9mr 10str 10at 6df Great Sword
Hirdman 10hp 15ar 10mr 10str 11at 12df Broad Sword

All of these units are comparably priced. Only the Zweihander costs even close to the same number of resources and has the same 8 encumberance... yet costs only 10 gold. Every unit on this list has a better weapon, deals more damage, and has more staying power than the myrmidion. It's not even worth comparing them to the three exceptional hoplites that he replaces from standard Arco.

So in addition to losing our good infantry and elephants, we gain basicly nothing for regular army troops. The Myrmidion is a poor heavy infantry unit. The Wind Lord costs far too much. The Chariots are far too expensive to use against independants, and are of only limited use in large battles. Therefore we must gain something magically, right?

Wrong. We lose the Astrologer, the cheapest 3-astral mage available, and we gain no new mages. The philosopher is without question the best researcher available to any race, yet is only slightly more efficient than a sage, and cannot cast search spells or forge lesser magic items. The Engineer and Skeptic both have limited usage. Both are unique units with potential, but certianly cannot hope to have the game impact of bonus troops that other themes get. You can give me a laundry list of usages for these two units, and I will tell you that I'd rather have a Seithkona, Tuatha, Master of the 5 elements, Fortune Teller, or Galderman. I'd sure as heck rather have my Astrologers back. These units have a niche role, yes. However, they do not compensate for the loss of Astrologers in any way, shape or form.

Golden Era Arcoscephale is far too weak. I hope the developers choose to strengthen this theme in their next patch, as they did Blood of Humans and Desert Tombs in previous patches. While I concede that realisticly a Bronze-age myrmidon should not be able to stand up to iron infantry, there must be some magical compensation. The philosopher is a wonderful unit, however it is the only notable addition to this theme. Sadly this does not make up for losing the very strong hoplites and elephants... and certianly not the philosopher, who is nearly as powerful as an Arch-Seraph in my opinion.

Obviously these ideas haven't been thoroughly tested, and yes Zen, I'll mod it if enough people like the ideas.

1) Give the wind rider awe +1. The only national troops which cost more than a wind rider are the Hydra, Black Hunter, and Neifel Giant. This ability would boost their survival rate considerably, and probably make them one of the best national troops in the game. Since they are one of the most expensive, obviously that's what they should be. Massing them would still be prohibitive, due to them being capitol-only and expensive... but this boost is both thematic and greatly enhances their power.

2) Raise the cost of the myrmidon to 18. Boost hit points by one (13). Boost morale by two (15). Boost both attack and defense by one (12). Most of you have seen the movie Troy. Their portrayal of the myrmidons is somewhat generous, but there is no doubt the Mydmidon is supposed to be an elite fighter. These bonuses would reflect the power of the unit, while not losing the thematic short sword and bronze armor. There's no way these changes would bring them in line with einheres, or other top end infantry... but hopefully the myrmidons would resemble the expensive elite units they are supposed to portray.

3) Raise the cost of the Wind Lord to 350 gold. Add two levels of Air magic and the same +1 awe that the wind riders get. This would not make the Wind Lord the recruitable SC that the Tuatha or Drotts are, but would still be an extremely powerful unit. This is thematic, as Arcoscephale gets air gems with Golden Era. While he would be very expensive as compared to Drotts and Tuatha, the lance, awe and flying abilities probably compensate for the glamour, priest, and better magical powers of the others. This would be a difficult unit to balance, but I think it would be a good addition to the theme.

I'll see what I can do about whipping up a mod. It's 2:30am out here on the West Coast, but I'm off tomorrow and possibly by the time you read this I may have whipped something up. Let me know what you think of the ideas.

[ June 18, 2004, 10:27: Message edited by: Blitz ]

[Blitz]

#modname "Golden Era Enhancement Mod"
By Peter Grauer aka Blitz
#description "This mod gives strong enhancements to Golden Era Arcoscephale, as well as the Arcoscephale national pretender, the shedu"
#icon "./empbanner.tga"
#domVersion 2.12

List of Changes (old values in brackets)

Wind Rider
- Awe +1 (0)

Myrmidon
- Cost raised to 18 (15)
- Morale boosted to 15 (13)
- Attack raised to 12 (11)
- Defense raised to 12 (11)
- Hit Points raised to 13 (12)

Myrmidon Champion
- Cost raised to 40
- Hit points raised to 15 (14)
- Morale Boosted to 16 (15)
- Attack raised to 13 (12)
- Defense raised to 13 (12)

Wind Lord

- cost raised to 400 (175)
- Awe +1 (0)
- Air magic level 2 (0)

Skeptic
- Stealth raised to 10 (0)

Shedu
- Encumberance lowered to 3 (4)
- Defense raised to 18 (10)
- Dominion raised to 4 (3)
- Protection raised to 15 (9)

#selectmonster 661
#enc 3
#def 18
#prot 15
#startdom 4
#end

#selectmonster 1077
#gcost 18
#hp 13
#mor 15
#att 12
#def 12
#end

#selectmonster 1071
#stealthy 10
#end

#selectmonster 1076
#gcost 40
#hp 15
#att 13
#def 13
#mor 16
#end

#selectmonster 1075
#gcost 400
#magicskill 1 2
#awe 1
#end

#selectmonster 1074
#awe 1
#end

[Blitz]

Took me an hour. Since you can't post file attatchments in this forum, I just pasted the modfile. Just copy it and paste into a textfile. Rename the textfile to goldenera.dm and place it in your \mods directory. The banner points to the banner from the empowerment mod, so if you want that picture download that mod.

I'm gonna email the beta of the mod to gandalf, and maybe he can put the zip on http://www.dom2minions.com/ until it's in a reasonably complete form, at which point I can send it to Illwinter.

Enjoy.

[Chris Byler]

Why not start the Shedu with Astral 3 Earth 3, instead of 1? Let him be strong in those paths since he will pay dearly to have any others (and you're pretty much forced to buy Astral pretty high anyway to protect against Magic Duel). He already has a high base point cost, why doesn't he get anything much for it?

Limited magical versatility and item use is still a bit of a problem, but he can now much more cheaply get a level of magic power that can make him a contender on the battlefield doing something like Power of the Spheres, Summon Earthpower, Blade Wind x3. Compared to other battlefield mages he is pretty tough even without casting defensive buffs. So once the usefulness of body ethereal, stoneskin, attack rear is exhausted, he can start standing behind bodyguards and troops and casting powerful spells over them.

Oh, and those chariots that are so crappy? Not once the God casts Legions of Steel/Marble Warriors and Will of the Fates on them... Riches from Beneath will offset the problems of a mandatory sloth dominion, if you can afford it.

As for Golden Age: I like the idea of myrmidons being more of an elite unit in skills/morale. They may not have modern equipment but they can fight like the heroes of old Awe on the wind riders seems cool too - and they *are* more expensive than Valkyries for little benefit. And I agree that Golden Age needs something magically to make up for the loss of the Astrologer, although I don't know what. Stronger or cheaper Mystics, a new mage, or maybe an arch-priestess with Nature 2 Holy 4 (making them a strong-priest nation)?

Hmm, I just had an idea. Give them the three Metal Adepts as capitol-only mages (perhaps a new capitol site, Metallic Tower?). They're astral and elemental, so they don't do anything a Mystic couldn't theoretically get; but they give you more predictability of what elements you get. Plus two of their elements are air and earth, which Golden Age Arco gets gems for. Best of all it requires almost no work to implement because the units already exist

[Scott Hebert]

Um, yikes. I think you guys have missed the point of GE Arco.

Asking why the units suck is like asking why Mictlan's units suck. Units aren't supposed to be GE's focus.

They lose the Astrologer, they gain the Philosopher. Both capital-only, with different foci. Oh, yes, they're not THAT much better than Sages... but no one gets Sages, do they? They're _clearly_ the best researchers in the game. No, they're not much good for anything but researching, but it's not like they'll be doing anything else.

They also have better access to Crystal Coins, so the loss of the Astrologer isn't so bad.

Clearly, GE Arco is supposed to be a magical powerhouse. Their units suffer by comparison.

And I'm not even going to touch the Shedu changes, except to say that you're wack. Not even immobile Pretenders get what you're suggesting the Shedu can get.

[quantum_mechani]

I don't find GA Arco a weak theme overall, but I agree the wind rider needs something like awe to make it worth it.

The Shedu seems very weak at the moment, but I would just lower the point cost, and/or make it two earth two astral.

[Blitz]

Asking why the units suck is like asking why Mictlan's units suck. Units aren't supposed to be GE's focus.

What then, is GE's focus in your opinion? Losing your best mage and gaining a great researcher? In case you haven't noticed, GA Arcoscephale has no abilities in Blood or Death. This means that unlike Mictan, they cannot hope to summon as good an army as mictan could. Earth summons are good, but the better ones are 5 earth, and your mages rarely come with more than 2E. Statues and clockwork horrors are nice, but they aren't devils and wights. The theme of GA seems to be research and flying creatures.

And I'm not even going to touch the Shedu changes, except to say that you're wack. Not even immobile Pretenders get what you're suggesting the Shedu can get.

Ok let's look at how I turned the Shedu into the hands down best pretender in the game shall we?

1) Added protection, which becomes redundant once you research alteration 1.
2) Lowered Encumbrance to 3, which is 3 more than undeads have.
3) Boosted dominion to 4, which is the same as the Dagon, Divine Serpant, Lich Queen, and Virtue.
4) Significantly raised defense value.

If you believe these bonuses raise this horrible pretender chassis to the level of a Virtue, Nataraja, or Ghost King, I respectfully doubt your grasp of the game. The facts are, you can buy a Manticore and give it Earth/Astral 1 and still have a cheaper chassis with 50 point path costs than the Shedu. Let's recap.

1) The manticore also flies and has limited item slots.
2) It costs 0 points, not 125
3) You can get the same Astral/Earth levels on a manticore, and save 25 points... while retaining 50 point paths in other areas.
4) While having lower HP and 6 protection vs 8, the manticore has higher strength, attack, defense, precision, in addition to 100% poison resistance as well as a poisonous stinger and bite instead of a hoof.

Ask yourself... how good is a manticore? Would you use a manticore with 18 defense instead of 12? That's what this "new" Shedu is. A manticore with 18 defense. God forbid this monster be unleashed on the Dom 2 community!

[Scott Hebert]

The Shedu seems very weak at the moment, but I would just lower the point cost, and/or make it two earth two astral.

Well, the Shedu isn't good late-game, but what nonhumanoid Pretender is?

You guys seem to ignore the fact that the Shedu can basically destroy any independent Province he wants, from about turn 3. And this is for the nation best at removing afflictions...

The Shedu is not part of the problem here.

[Blitz]

Oh, and those chariots that are so crappy? Not once the God casts Legions of Steel/Marble Warriors and Will of the Fates on them...

Trust me, they are pretty bad. Even with all that stuff on them, they are going to get annihilated. Imagine if you will... on one side of the battlefield we have 10 chariots. On the other side of the battlefield we have 5 knights. Same gold cost, but the knights are about 3x cheaper in resources. You cast whatever spells you want, but the knights win. When you add in a squad of chariots, the idea is probably to flank and crush troops in the back. They really are not that good in the middle of the formation, although they can do a little damage.

In MP you aren't going to be able to run free into your opponent's backfield. You are going to run into resistance, be it knights (probably) or infantry (almost as bad). 10 protection and 18 defense on a 30 gold, 41 resource unit simply does not cut it in reality.

With that said, I don't think you can boost chariots much. I think a couple in a big army can do a little damage, but boosting them would make GA a little overpowered. I chose to focus on the wind riders, as they were the theme's signature unit, and a solution like awe seemed like a good fit. Awe is an incredibly powerful ability against independant troops, although it's usefulness against enemy elite troopers or mindless creations is somewhat lessened. I have a lot of experience with awe, as the Virtue is often my pretender of choice. I have a suspicion that awe +1 may be too high and it will have to be lowered to +0, but time will tell.

You guys seem to ignore the fact that the Shedu can basically destroy any independent Province he wants, from about turn 3. And this is for the nation best at removing afflictions...

Actually the Shedu hits 100 fatigue after about 10 tramples and dies from exhaustion, regardless of his hit points. This is not apparent from looking at his stats, but if you think you can use him like a Wurm out of the box you are sadly mistaken.

Honestly the Shedu mod was an afterthought. I wouldn't use the "new" Shedu either, and I'm temped to just remove him so we can focus on the more important units in the wind rider and myrmidon.

[ June 18, 2004, 15:46: Message edited by: Blitz ]

Originally posted by Blitz:
Trust me, they are pretty bad. Even with all that stuff on them, they are going to get annihilated. Imagine if you will... on one side of the battlefield we have 10 chariots. On the other side of the battlefield we have 5 knights. Same gold cost, but the knights are about 3x cheaper in resources. You cast whatever spells you want, but the knights win. When you add in a squad of chariots, the idea is probably to flank and crush troops in the back. They really are not that good in the middle of the formation, although they can do a little damage.

Heh. This is laughable. "Chariots are no good when the unit most commonly to counter them is around". And 10 Chariots buffed by Mystics will stomp the hell out of those Knights. Maybe in your experience they don't, but in my experience playing GE in MP they do.

In MP you aren't going to be able to run free into your opponent's backfield. You are going to run into resistance, be it knights (probably) or infantry (almost as bad). 10 protection and 18 defense on a 30 gold, 41 resource unit simply does not cut it in reality.

You do know there is a "Attack Cavalry" command right?

With that said, I don't think you can boost chariots much. I think a couple in a big army can do a little damage, but boosting them would make GA a little overpowered.

Couple in a big army? Meh. Chariots are one of the only saving graces for GE. The Myrmidons can't be gathered enough to make as much of an impact as the Chariots. Yes, they have weaknesses, but as soon as you counter that weakness, Chariots will mow down a good % of other national troops but don't have the inherent weaknesses of Elephants.

[ June 18, 2004, 15:51: Message edited by: Zen ]