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Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
EEEvil vs Klingon. Turn 115 and think the EEEvil will be dead meat...
Well, I was right: after the turn 179 the Klingons are the winners! Khaless is Great!!!! EEEvil_vs_Klingon_G5.zip Now, the Angelican Regency will meet the Jraenar! Tomorrow the result... because I'm going to sleep! Edit 1: well... was forced to edit the A.Regency that have downloaded from the Universal Shipyards, because where not 1.78 compatible. Needed to edit the settings.txt (all the settings after "Personality Group"), and fleets.txt (after "Fleet default strategy"), because got game errors... I have filled the fields with Aquilaeian values, then, sorry if they doesn't does a good work... Edit 2: the Jraenar won, and was another fast game. ARegency_vs_Jraenar.zip [ November 17, 2002, 12:36: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ] |
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Thanks for the update and the effort you are putting in MB!
Just as a note, the Praetorians and Klingons have a lot of similar AI files, with the Politics and Anger files being the main differences between the two (subtle differences include things like the Praetorians not researching Cloaking although they'll use it if they get hold of it somehow). Regards, GE |
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Yes, yes, the good old EA. So very peaceful until attacked. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Calm waters are deep... |
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Just wanted to say-
What a great idea! |
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Here the Last game for the first wave of matches: the Narn defeated the Romulan very fast (Turn 174). Narn_vs_Romulan_G6.zip Sitiuations after the first serie of matches: Group 1 EEE 1 Azorani 1 United Flora 0 Drakol 0 Group 2 Aquilaeian 1 Space Vikings 1 Orks 0 UkraTal 0 Group 3 Pyrochette 1 Praetorian 1 Namovans 0 Vaxin 0 Group 4 Toron 1 Earh Alliance 1 XiChung 0 Rage 0 Group 5 Klingons 1 Jraenar 1 Eeevil 0 A.Regency 0 Group 6 Shadows 1 Narn 1 Star Wars Emp. 0 Romulans 0 Now, I'll start with the second serie of matches. Somebody wants to bet??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif [ November 17, 2002, 19:32: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ] |
Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
Have started the second wave of games.
The United Flora have defeated the Drakol, and still could go to the second round. In the other hand, the Drakol will not continue... Here the link: Drakol_vs_UFlora_G1.zip Now, are fighting the EEE vs Azorani, for the leadership of this group. |
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The EEE confirmed their good qualities, and defeated the Azorani. Please note that the Azorani are not "dead" when you go to load the Last savegame... but they only have a minefield.
Here the link: EEE_vs_Azorani_G1.zip Next, the Aquilaeian will meet the Space Vikings. |
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Hey, thanks for the support guys!
And now, I'm starting a duel of evil people: Star Wars Empire 1 vs Shadows! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Edit 1: like with the Angelican Regency, the SWEmpire had not updated the settings.txt and fleets.txt to run into 1.78. And like with the A.Regency, have filled the settings with Aquilaeian settings (was the first race in the list!!!!!). Edit 2: the Shadows have defeated the Empire! SWEmpire1_vs_Shadows_G6.zip [ November 17, 2002, 14:08: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ] |
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Aquilaeian vs Vikings.
A very weird game!!! The Vikings are using the Political Puppets a lot against the Aquilaeian, and with the initiative during most the game... but they're loosing by points!!!!!! 454 turns and can count 11 dead empires!!!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Every turn take a loong time to play in my computer, then, hope could post the result today. Turn 464, and the Vikings have a lot of riots, because the Aquilaeians have started to attack their systems. Finally, the Aquilaeian won by points... but had a winner situation. Here is the link: Aquilaeian_vs_Vikings_G2.zip Now, are fighting the Orks vs UkraTal. [ November 18, 2002, 04:04: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ] |
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Those crazy Vikings... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
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I for one, are happy that those vikings are dead. I'll be sleeping happy to know that they aren't so smart after all (took down my baseship in a game).
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The UkraTal defeated the Orks... then, all the races still of this group, can be in the next round!
Will post the files later. Here the link: Orks_vs_UkraTal_G2.zip [ November 18, 2002, 22:34: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ] |
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[ November 18, 2002, 11:40: Message edited by: dogscoff ] |
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What the....
O.... n.... i.... o.... n.... What the....? Hey, what's that sound? |
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Praetorians vs Namovans.
Another weird game! During 420 turns was the more boring AI test that ever did!!!!! Nothing happened! But after it, the Namovans started an offensive and used Black Holes Creators and Sun Destroyers against the poor Praetorians! After the turn 500, still remained some Praetorian's planets, but were not many... Here the link: Praetorian_Vs_Namovans.zip |
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[quote]Originally posted by dogscoff:
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The Pyrochette have defeated the Vaxin. Had not time to see the match.
Here the link: Vaxin_vs_Pyrochette_G3.zip |
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The Toron have defeated the Rage in 210 turns, and surelly will be in the next round... meanwhile, will be very difficult to see the Rage there.
Toron_vs_Rage_G4.zip Now, are fighting the XiChung vs EA. If the EA wins, then, XiChung and Rage will be out. [ November 19, 2002, 23:01: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ] |
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The EA has defeated the XiChung, and then, the EA and the Toron go to the next round!!!
Are the first confirmed empires in the second round!!!! XiChung_vs_EA_G4.zip |
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The Angelican Regency defeated the EEEvil in 230 turns. Always I liked to see the goodness triumph over the wickedness! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Eeevil_vs_ARegency_G5.zip |
Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
Jraenar vs Klingons.
Klingons are ahead in the numbers, but both empires are lack of resources (Klingons radioactives, Jraenar minearls). It's another easy game. Think because the Klingons has not Minesweepers and has not the resources to build them, can't invade the Jraenar's systems... and mehanwhile the Jraenar's fleets had the "no movement" syndrome (for example, their fleet at Baksha). I'm going to sleep... EDIT: Turn 500 and nothing have changed! The Klingon won by points. Later will post the link. [ November 20, 2002, 10:58: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ] |
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Hmmm... the Rage seem to be having problems in this. In my testing they seemed to do well. Has anyone been playing against the Rage outside of this test? If so, what are your impressions?
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Yes, I have expected more form the Rage, but in the other hand, think the Toron is one of the candidates to win the contest, and the EA is a veru good race. Anyway, don't know, could be the map? |
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@Alpha Kodiak,
In my games (large galaxies, high difficulty, low bonus, 19 modpack races) I generally find the Rage to be between 6th to 10th place across the first 100 turns (I include them in all my games). They are aggressive and have good ships but I'm not sure that they expand fast enough. @Master Belisarius, Just a note, all Klingon ships carry minesweeper elements. Are you suggesting though that the AI waits until it has a certain number of Minesweeper ships though before it will tackle a known minefield? Regards GE PS: The EA quite often make it into the top 4 in my games (make quite a few friends on the diplomatic front usually). [ November 20, 2002, 11:59: Message edited by: God Emperor ] |
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1) Are you sure that the AI decloak the ATTACK ships, before go through a minefield? (I know that the AI does it with the MINESWEEPERS SHIPS, and doubt that would be smart enough to do it with ATTACK ships). But I can see another problem: if the attack ships find a minefield not reported yet, the minesweepers will be useless because can't sweep mines while are cloaked. 2) Into the settings.txt, the Klingons have: Ships don't move through minefields := True It mean that these large fleets with ATTACK ships with minesweepers DEVICES, never will try to go through a warp point if know that at the other side does exist mines... They will wait until a MINESWEEPER SHIP could clean the minefield before go there. Some modders, have changed this settings to "False". To my taste, I like this setting in "True", because if not, the AI like to send fleets to commit suicide, sending ships without minesweepers DEVICES or lack of it... But if you put it "True", then, the MINESWEEPERS SHIPS are a MUST BE. [ November 20, 2002, 13:57: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ] |
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diffculty, TDM-races). If anyone survive the first onslaught of your Rage the fortunes of war change. I think the Rage "kill" themselves by fighting almost every race they meet. They are bleeding out literally.... Probably the price for making them so aggressive. Is it possible that the Rage research mines relatively late? After the EEE had deployed their first minefields (they research mines very early), they can relax for several years, crippling the expansion of the Rage at least in their direction for this time. The fleets of the Rage are deadly in early game, a lot of ships. But I never met many fleets. The EEE could glass lots of planets before running into one of them. When they met one, well, very bad luck and some new construction orders. Later in the game lack of technology becomes an issue. Maybe it comes from this "bleeding out". According to my experiences it is true when I say: the later I met the Rage the better. To be honest I used (and use) them to test my AIs in early game. If you survive the first and second year after making First Contact with the Primary Sequencer (in his usual mood) you know that your race is doing fine. After two games against your new Version I would say these impressions are still valid. I cannot say anything about the expansion issue GE mentioned. Don't work with rock/ice planet races. Regards R. |
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diffculty, TDM-races). If anyone survive the first onslaught of your Rage the fortunes of war change. I think the Rage "kill" themselves by fighting almost every race they meet. They are bleeding out literally.... Probably the price for making them so aggressive. Is it possible that the Rage research mines relatively late? After the EEE had deployed their first minefields (they research mines very early), they can relax for several years, crippling the expansion of the Rage at least in their direction for this time. The fleets of the Rage are deadly in early game, a lot of ships. But I never met many fleets. The EEE could glass lots of planets before running into one of them. When they met one, well, very bad luck and some new construction orders. Later in the game lack of technology becomes an issue. Maybe it comes from this "bleeding out". According to my experiences it is true when I say: the later I met the Rage the better. To be honest I used (and use) them to test my AIs in early game. If you survive the first and second year after making First Contact with the Primary Sequencer (in his usual mood) you know that your race is doing fine. After two games against your new Version I would say these impressions are still valid. I cannot say anything about the expansion issue GE mentioned. Don't work with rock/ice planet races. Regards R.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Interesting observations. I was aware of, and accepted, the problem of falling behind by not having trade relations with other races, but that shouldn't have an effect in a one-on-one game. You may be right about not researching mines early enough. Also, in this game, there is a fair distance between the two opponents, which gives more time for the Rage's opponent to develop. Another map related issue may be the number of moons on the map. It seems like there are less than an average number, and the Rage flourish on maps with more moons. I think I do need to look at the number of fleets issue. I had messed around with those settings early in the developement of the Rage, and I may have made them build too few large fleets. I will have to investigate that. I also need to make sure that they maintain a good expansion rate. |
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Alpha wrote: "Another map related issue may be the number of moons on the map. It seems
like there are less than an average number, and the Rage flourish on maps with more moons." I did the map with the idea that everybody should have similar opportunities to colonize planets... a big problem when you consider that doesn't exist Gas Giant planets with "None" as atmosphere! To compensate this, was because I have included 2 moons without atmosphere (one rock and the other ice) per system. Then, think the Rage still had more opportunities to develop in the EARLY game than the other races, because had 1 more breathable planet per system, but less opportunities to build facilities when "ICE" and "GAS" colonizations are available later. In the early game: Standard Rock Race with "Advanced Storage Techniques" 1 Breathable with 18 facilities. 1 Non-Breathable moon with 1 facility. 4 Non-Breathable planets with 3 facilities. Total = 18 + 1 + (4*3) = 31 facilites Rock Race with "No atmosphere" and "Advanced Storage Techniques" 1 planet NO atmosphere with 18 facilities. 1 moon with 6 facilities. 4 Non-Breathable planets with 3 facilities. Total = 18 + 6 + (4*3) = 36 facilites per system. Every race had 7 nearest systems available to colonize, the Rage had available 7 * 5 = 35 extra facilities to build in the early game, if they where able to colonize these systems and keep them. Then, don't think one of the reasons was the lack of space to colonize. Considering that the Rage doesn't lost the game in the late game, the reason in my view (and of course it not mean that I'm right!), was mostly, what God Emperor wrote: expansion. It can justify, how in the turn 50, the Toron was able to have colonies in all the nearest systems and 42 planets. At the same turn, the Rage only had 22 planets and has not colonies in Abrion, Butukret and Rove. Ok, maybe the Rage research mines something later, or had bad luck to be in a group with 2 strong races like Toron and EA, but the main reason think was the expansion rate. Something vital in a map where it's no room to expand, if it's not going against the enemy. |
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Here the link to see the game between Jraenar vs Klingons.
Jraenar_vs_Klingon_G5.zip Now, I'm starting the game between SWEmpire and Narn. |
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The Narn defeated the Star Wars Empire... the Empire surrendered their Last planets.
Think the Empire has very big problems in the ship designs: some of them has not Sensors, and others has no ECM... Here the link: SWEmpire_vs_Narn_G6.zip Now I'm doing the Last game for the second wave: Shadows_Vs_Romulans Edit: the Romulans has the same problem of the Klingons/Jraenar with the mines... But the Shadows have lots of minesweeper ships, then, hope this will be NOT another game until the turn 500. Turn 142 and the Shadows are ahead in the numbers... and without minesweeper ships, think the Romulans will play a lost battle. Turn 151 an at least the Romulans built a lone minesweeper... that will die trying to clean a minefiled at Aargau... Think that the difference it's that they're not out of supplies like the Jraenar/Klingons were. Turn 219 and although the Romulans can't go into the Shadows territory, they have killed 2 large fleets without loses, and now are first! Turn 395 and nothing new... Both races out of supplies and without fight. Think that the God Emperor's races would work better with Medium or High bonus... Turn 500. Game over and the Romulans wins by a short margin! They managed to open a hole into Shadow's territory and killed most planets at Aargau. But the Shadows attacked at Abrion. Then, both races finished with lots of riots and with very close victory points: 798K vs 746K. Here the link: Shadows_vs_Romulan_G6.zip [ November 21, 2002, 01:44: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ] |
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MB,
Thanks for the report regarding minesweepers. Looks like I will have to advance them a bit further in the AI_Construction queue. Regards, GE |
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Here is the situation after the second wave of matches:
Group 1 EEE 2 Azorani 1 United Flora 1 Drakol 0 Group 2 Aquilaeian 2 Space Vikings 1 UkraTal 1 Orks 0 Group 3 Pyrochette 2 Praetorian 1 Namovans 1 Vaxin 0 Group 4 Toron 2 Earh Alliance 2 XiChung 0 Rage 0 Group 5 Klingons 2 Jraenar 1 A.Regency 1 Eeevil 0 Group 6 Narn 2 Shadows 1 Romulans 1 Star Wars Emp. 0 Now, I'm starting the 3rd and Last wave of matches for the first round. The Azorani will fight against the United Flora, and the winner will be in the next Round with the EEE. [ November 21, 2002, 01:45: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ] |
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Azorani vs United Flora.
Turn 246. A very interesting game, and 2 very good races! The United Flora at the offensive with the Talisman, but the Azorani has AS... Turn 260. The UF attacks in Aargau are creating riots into the Azorani colonies. The Azorani has a big fleet that maybe would have been able to stop the UF attacks... but not used it. Sadly, it looks like a hardcoded behavior. Interesting, but the Azorani are destroying most the planets (previously conquered by the UF) into Aargau, to rebuild them later. I'm going to sleep! Edit: United Flora won. Here the link: Azorani_vs_UFlora_G1.zip [ November 21, 2002, 22:25: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ] |
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the drakol seem to be crushed too easily; in all my games, by the time I have contact, they are almost dead and holding off at their homesystem, or worse.
I'd like to see the drakol become a menace as it is described... |
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The Aquilaeian defeated the UkraTal.
Here the link: UkraTal_vs_Aquilaeian_G2.zip Orks vs Vikings: what a fast game!!!!! The Vikings defeated the Orks in less than 156 turns! Here the link. Orks_vs_Vikings_G2.zip |
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The Namovans defeated the Vaxin.
Here the link: Namovans_vs_Vaxin_G3.zip Now, if the Praetorians can defeat the Pyrochette, will have 3 empires with the same score! |
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The Drakol are not only an Intel race, they are a Gas Giant race, too. This is a problem for the AI as you have fewer planets to settle. They might be larger but the AI uses for various reasons more small planets better then fewer large planets. Further, when they loose a large planet, they are really screwed.
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The Pyrochette defeated the Praetorians... then, they're first in the group and the Namovans second.
Here the link: Pyrochette_vs_Praetorians_G3.zip Now are playing EA vs Toron. Sadly, I'm going out and could continue with the contest, sunday nigth. |
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MB,
I downloaded some of your files but cannot seem to load them in SE4. Are you using any special settings or modified files? Could you post your /Data files? Regards, GE [ November 25, 2002, 00:03: Message edited by: God Emperor ] |
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MB,
Reloaded the modpack Data files and everything is fine now. Must have had a file that was edited in some way. Anyway, was just checking a few saves and noticed that my races seemed short of resources in their games (you also made a comment previously). eg Praetorians in their Last game had Ice Colonisation by turn 110 but were never able to afford to build an Ice coloniser. Did you set the game up with No Bonus? (My races are optimised for low bonus which would explain their running out of resources - I suspect a few other modders have optimised theirs for low bonus as well as it makes the AI a better challenge by offsetting their inability to optimise use of resources). Regards, GE [ November 25, 2002, 14:43: Message edited by: God Emperor ] |
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Why? 1) Were all games played between AIs, and the "human" is only nominal. 2) All the AI start with 3 good planets, and all the planets available to generate resources, are very good, then, the AI have more available resources than in standard games. 3) The most important reason: when I wrote the game settings for the games, nobody suggested to change the bonus!!!! For the first round, I can't change this setting... I'm near to finish and would not like to restart everything! I could change it to LOW BONUS, for the next steps of this contest... but would like to hear some more opinions first. Finally, want to say that most the races had not problems with the resources... In my personal view, put this setting in: Maximum Maintenance Percent of Revenue := 99 it's something high. Maybe would be ok for medium or high bonus, I think. My two races had 90, and never where out of resources. In my opinion (of course), believe it's something dangerous put this setting so high. If for some reason (even with high bonus could happen), the AI is out of supplies, never will be able to build a new colony and compensate this problem, if the AI doesn't lost some ships first... [ November 25, 2002, 17:42: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ] |
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Keep up the running commentary, MB, it makes an interesting read. |
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MB,
I wasnt suggesting making any changes now to how you were running the matches, just seeking confirmation of my deduction (I didnt realise that you were intending to use No Bonus - I could have adjusted the AI_Construction_Vehicles files if I had realised - no worries though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) and making an observation for the benefit of other modders and forum members assessing the performance of the various AI (ie those AI running out of resources dont necessarily have to be revised). Regards, GE PS: The 99% setting works fine on low bonus and assists the AI by maintaining a very high build rate - 90% in my experience results in the AI losing lots of resources. On No Bonus however, 90% is probably one of the easiest settings changes to make. PPS: I second the comment regarding game commentary and look forward to the next installment. [ November 25, 2002, 22:13: Message edited by: God Emperor ] |
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