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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
It will be interesting to see how these things play out in the long run, but the most interesting thing to me actually doesn't involve the documents themselves. Rather, I find it interesting that each news source claims they were the ones who found the documents, and in the cases of the Star and the BBC they even named different correspondents who found the documents. The only agency that varied was ABC, who took the interesting approach of using the opportunity to lead with how badly the US is handling security of all the potential sites for finding documents, rather than the significance of the documents themselves (though they did get into that later in their report). I'm not sure what the significance of all that is, but it is interesting, anyway.
EDIT: Removed quote in case it would cause formatting problems for this page. [ April 29, 2003, 18:30: Message edited by: Alpha Kodiak ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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What is strange is why the big news outlets aren't making a big deal out of this. Isn't this the evidence everyone has been waiting for?? |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Please.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Intelligence documents, especially the one that would give the higher moral ground to the enemy, are kept in self burning containers. They are not left lying around, and enemy intelligence buildings are the very first thing that a victorious army secure. In my humble little opinion, those documents were left there for the reporters to find. Sorry, but I have learn in my short life that in war everything goes. Those documents fill the profile of "made" evidence. Said that, I have no doubt that Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein were working together against their common enemy, but I don't think that relationship could ever be proven, so some nice guy at Langley made it easier for the US in the Propaganda War by delivering the missing evidence into the hands of couple of very nice reporters, who, of course, are not gonna doubt the papers that will probably give them their 15 minutes of fame. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Check this qoute from the Star.com :
"Spies from the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency, who scoured the building after it was bombed into rubble, apparently missed the document. " http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Tesco, can you edit your post with the links so this page returns to its original format?
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
The print copy of The Star actually went into quite a bit of detail on why they don't think this evidence was made up. The Online copy is considerably abreviated.
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Because it was written with the same machine or same hand writting than other papers? Because it was written in an old paper? Because of signatures? Because of the date? Because where it was found? Because of the ink? My friend, we live in a world where everything is falsificable. My believe that Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein worked together doesn't need any evidence. I just needed to do a little math. But these papers "found" in an Iraki intelligence building have "Made in USA" written all over it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Is it true?
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Can't say if it is true or not. A friend in Europe found it and sent it to me. Did a few searches and all I could find were that article and some comments about it elsewhere. Couldn't verify it independently myself.
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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Because it was written with the same machine or same hand writting than other papers? Because it was written in an old paper? Because of signatures? Because of the date? Because where it was found? Because of the ink? My friend, we live in a world where everything is falsificable. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yea no kidding. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I can only assume by these questions that you did not have access to the full article. Not that it matters since I guess you wouldn't believe it anyway. Do you really think the CIA is running around Iraq hidding forged papers in really obscure locations on the off chance someone will find them or that the Iraqi are so gifted they coverd up all their contact with bin Laden? |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
another intersting link
http://www.fortune.com/fortune/artic...447429,00.html about Rumsfield and ABB and North Korea and reactors |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
OP-ED COLUMNIST
Matters of Emphasis By PAUL KRUGMAN We were not lying," a Bush administration official told ABC News. "But it was just a matter of emphasis." The official was referring to the way the administration hyped the threat that Saddam Hussein posed to the United States. According to the ABC report, the real reason for the war was that the administration "wanted to make a statement." And why Iraq? "Officials acknowledge that Saddam had all the requirements to make him, from their standpoint, the perfect target." A British newspaper, The Independent, reports that "intelligence agencies on both sides of the Atlantic were furious that briefings they gave political leaders were distorted in the rush to war." One "high-level source" told the paper that "they ignored intelligence assessments which said Iraq was not a threat." Sure enough, we have yet to find any weapons of mass destruction. It's hard to believe that we won't eventually find some poison gas or crude biological weapons. But those aren't true W.M.D.'s, the sort of weapons that can make a small, poor country a threat to the greatest power the world has ever known. Remember that President Bush made his case for war by warning of a "mushroom cloud." Clearly, Iraq didn't have anything like that - and Mr. Bush must have known that it didn't. Does it matter that we were misled into war? Some people say that it doesn't: we won, and the Iraqi people have been freed. But we ought to ask some hard questions - not just about Iraq, but about ourselves. First, why is our compassion so selective? In 2001 the World Health Organization - the same organization we now count on to protect us from SARS - called for a program to fight infectious diseases in poor countries, arguing that it would save the lives of millions of people every year. The U.S. share of the expenses would have been about $10 billion per year - a small fraction of what we will spend on war and occupation. Yet the Bush administration contemptuously dismissed the proposal. Or consider one of America's first major postwar acts of diplomacy: blocking a plan to send U.N. peacekeepers to Ivory Coast (a former French colony) to enforce a truce in a vicious civil war. The U.S. complains that it will cost too much. And that must be true - we wouldn't let innocent people die just to spite the French, would we? So it seems that our deep concern for the Iraqi people doesn't extend to suffering people elsewhere. I guess it's just a matter of emphasis. A cynic might point out, however, that saving lives peacefully doesn't offer any occasion to stage a victory parade. Meanwhile, aren't the leaders of a democratic nation supposed to tell their citizens the truth? One wonders whether most of the public will ever learn that the original case for war has turned out to be false. In fact, my guess is that most Americans believe that we have found W.M.D.'s. Each potential find gets blaring coverage on TV; how many people catch the later announcement - if it is ever announced - that it was a false alarm? It's a pattern of misinformation that recapitulates the way the war was sold in the first place. Each administration charge against Iraq received prominent coverage; the subsequent debunking did not. Did the news media feel that it was unpatriotic to question the administration's credibility? Some strange things certainly happened. For example, in September Mr. Bush cited an International Atomic Energy Agency report that he said showed that Saddam was only months from having nuclear weapons. "I don't know what more evidence we need," he said. In fact, the report said no such thing - and for a few hours the lead story on MSNBC's Web site bore the headline "White House: Bush Misstated Report on Iraq." Then the story vanished - not just from the top of the page, but from the site. Thanks to this pattern of loud assertions and muted or suppressed retractions, the American public probably believes that we went to war to avert an immediate threat - just as it believes that Saddam had something to do with Sept. 11. Now it's true that the war removed an evil tyrant. But a democracy's decisions, right or wrong, are supposed to take place with the informed consent of its citizens. That didn't happen this time. And we are a democracy - aren't we? source: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/29/opinion/29KRUG.html |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Tesco, could you edit your post from a couple days ago with all those links so the format of this thread get back to normal?
Because now we have to side scroll due to those long links...... |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Strange, it appears that it was my quote of Tesco's links that was causing the problem. Oh, how I love computers....
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
really i do not get that at all ??? perhaps it is your screen size
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Hey, now is perfect!
Thanks. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
http://www.totalobscurity.com/mind/flagstore/
This is a great great site..... Just to show some humour in the thread... |
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
I like the "store," tesco, and the links off of it are great too!
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
That's a rather offensive site. It implies that the only patriotic Americans are slack-jawed yokels... nothing humorous at all...
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
I would disagree Fyron. The web admin even places a disclaimer on what his intention is with that web site. I know it is heavy on the Satire.
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Oh, a disclaimer. That sure makes everything better. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
I personally disagree with the implication of the site, but i felt that it was so over-the-top that it was clearly satirical. I think that there have definitely been several instances of over-enthusiastic patriotism ("freedom fries," anyone?) of late.
Here's a site making fun of the other side of things: http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/ (check out the MSS through history section . . . two in particular are quite good.) |
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
I wasn't going to check Tesco's link to total obscurity, but when Fyron started complaining, I thought that link must be good..... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
http://www.totalobscurity.com/mind/f...flagoffend.jpg |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
I found it quite funny. I don't see it as necessarily making fun of those who display patriotism so much as the industry trying to sell anything and everything in a way to make a buck off of it.
Just goes to show that funny, like so many other things, is in the eye of the beholder. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Interesting article on US foreign policy & decision making
Neo-cons: who are they & how much influence do they really have? |
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It is not funny because it operates under the assumption that only "hicks" have any patriotism for America. The only way you would find it funny is if you essentially agree with that claim (like all satire).
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
What's to indicate that the driver is a "hick"/"slack-jawed yokel" (as you implied)? The truck is brand new (or in perfect shape, anyway), it doesn't have a speck of mud on it, it is driving through the middle of a rather high-class area of a warm region (Presumably in America - California?) and it is in an orginized parade. All indications are that the driver is a reasonably successful person in the sense of sufficient funds to do what (s)he wants and sufficent time to do so.
Please, enlighten us as to what exactly made you think the driver is a "hick"/"slack-jawed yokel" Fyron. [ April 30, 2003, 20:08: Message edited by: Jack Simth ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Only hicks support patriotism. And only people that support that view find it funny. Let me analyze this with a simple example. Me and my family.
I am patriotic. I love the United States. I have lived in many other countries in Europe for various periods of time. I like the United States better flaws and all. My Grandfather on my dads side faught in World War 2. My Grandfather on my moms side faught in the Korean War. My father faught in Vietnam. My older brother was in Somalia, GF1, and Serbia as a US Ranger. One of my best friends is in the Air Force, another is in the Marines. My family and friends as well as myself find that site funny. I would not consider us slack jawed yokels, nor would I say that any of us consider people who display patriotism to be such. Through hard physical evidence I would have to say that your statement is simply false. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Jack:
Did you read the caption? All proof necessary is in there (and in most of the captions). Cyrien: Your comments directly support my statements about that site, actually. I said that the site implies that only "hicks" are patriotic, and you claim to not be a hick and to be patriotic. So how does that make my main statement false? [ April 30, 2003, 23:35: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Sure - the person running the site is an idiot, granted. However, there is humor in there (especially if you let the photo stand alone) which your Posts would deny.
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
There is perverse humor, yes. But no good humor.
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Now this I find funny. Get a post of some humor in what was no doubt thought of as a safe post. And now the topic seems to have totally moved to a side tangent about the humor. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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Yummmy! [ May 01, 2003, 00:49: Message edited by: geoschmo ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
I would classify that site as Political Humor, and political humor always make one side laugh and another side rage.
Do I find it funny? You bet. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Aloofi:
So are you "on the side" that thinks only hicks are patriotic? I am "on the side" that thinks that site's basis of humor (that only hicks are patriotic) is absurd. The only thing laughable is the idiocy of the site's author. |
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But I must confess that is irresistable to support anything that piss you off...... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Fyron, don't you realize that your totalitarian way of posting your opinions make people to pick on you uncounciousnally? My position? I like USA, but I don't like Bush, not even a little bit. And Patriotism is a very, very dangerous feeling. Especially for a superpower. Me, I'm nationalistic, and my feelings for Israel are very patriotic, but Israel is a tiny little country surrounded by enemies that have sworn many times in public to push Israel into the Mediterranean Sea. For us patriotism is survival. For the USA, on the other hand, patriotism is not a necesity, nor a do or die issue, and more importantly, patriotism in the US have come hand to hand with discrimination of minorities and foreign nationals, and with a shaking of the constitutional rights. . |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Patriotism means you love your country. It has nothing to do with supporting the current leaders or not.
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Actually I'd say those types of "patriots" are more like NAZIs than hicks. Have you ever seen Triumph of the Will?
You can just replace "USA, USA, USA" with Zieg Hiel. |
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But do you know what the scariest part? What a politician can do with those feelings. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Umm... there are plenty of non-white, non-christian patriots in the USA... maybe not in the deep South, but most of the country is not as racist as you seem to believe that it is.
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Of course, the ones that know me don't tell me that to my face, but as a white jew I pass very easily as white non jewish, so I happen to hear more than I'm expected to. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Judge a populace based off of a few individiuals... who is being prejudiced now?
There are a lot of racist liberals, and there are a lot of exteremely tolerant conservatives. The world is not as black and white as you are painting it. [ May 01, 2003, 23:50: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ] |
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I should add to my post that I am not white. Half-white on the side of not looking white at all. My mother was from Puerto Rico. In addition I would say that I live in West Texas.
Also I would have to add that many of the most patriotic people I have known have not been white at all. In addition I am neither racist nor a conservative. I tend to not like labels such as conservative or liberal etc... You can be conservative in one area and be extremely liberal in another. Oh. And I'm not overly religious. My fathers side is Protestant and my mothers Catholic and I'm Agnostic. So there. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif A refutation of someone elses argument. [ May 02, 2003, 00:16: Message edited by: Cyrien ] |
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