Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

An English friend of mine once told me: Don't change your horses in the mid of the stream.
I know, I know, it's just a proverb but there is truth in it. Hopefully I can explain my point of view:

We have a contest with defined preconditions (which were open to discussion) for its whole course. If one or more of these preconditions are changed for the second round, we will get another contest. There are 12 races which are being eliminated in the first round. Possibly some of these races still would be in the contest if those new precondition(s) were used from the beginning. That's just what nobody knows and that is exactly my point. Changing rules during a contest will lead to a lot of "what if" questions.

My answer would be same even if the EEE were eliminated during the first round.

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ok, I understand.
Maybe the next time, I will run it with low bonus!
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

EA vs Toron.
This time, 2 strong and friendly AI's had close encounter... and was... verrrrry boring!
The EA won by points in the turn 500, and both races had a Military Alliance until the end...
Here the link:
EA_vs_Toron_G4.zip

XiChung vs Rage.
This time, although the Rage has not started very fast, they got a deserved victory and defeated the XiChung in 330 turns.
Here the link: XiChung_vs_Rage_G4.zip

Now, I'm running Jraenar vs EEEvil.

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

Jraenar vs EEEvil Empire.
The Jraenar's expansion was a lot more fast than the EEEvil, and killed them in less than 126 turns!!
The BC EEEvil's ships with DUC cannons, were unable to stop the Jraenar's LC ships with PPB.
Here the link: Jraenar_vs_EEEvil_G5.zip

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

Klingons vs Angelican Regency.
Turn 246 and the Klingons have the best opportunities. They're not out of supplies, but anyway, had not mine-sweepers to remove the Angelican Regency's minefields... then, think they will not start the final assault for now...

Turn 333 and nothing changed... The Regency like the Klingon, has not mine-sweeper ships... then, probably it will continue until the turn 500.

Turn 401.
The Klingons are now out of radioactives...
The Angelican regency, could colonize a lot of Ice/Gas planets... but is not building colony ships altough has enough resources, and has colony ships in all the Ship Construction file's states! Think it's because still has lot of Colony rock ships, that can't use to colonize because are no more available rock planets into their systems...

Turn 500 and the Klingons won...
Here the link: Klingon_vs_ARegency_G5.zip

[ November 26, 2002, 03:02: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm using the TDM data files. Think you should have not problems using it (because know that others where able to see the savefiles).
Please let me know if you still have problems.

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

Romulan vs SWEmpire.
The Empire was not a menace for the Romulans... Turn 155 and the Empire will fall soon.

The Romulans has the Force, and crushed the Empire before the turn 163. Think they lost so fast, because has not layed mines... if not, at least the Romulans would had more problems to win.
Here the link: Romulan_vs_SWEmpire_G6.zip

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

The Narn defeated the Shadows (later will post the link).

Then, here are the races that will be in the next round:

GROUP S1
Eee
Space Vikings
Pyrochette
Toron

GROUP S2
Aquilaeian
United Flora
Klingons
Romulans

GROUP S3
Earth Alliance
Namovans
Narn
Jraenar

- For the round 3 where only will be 2 Groups with 3 AIs, I'll play 2 games between every AI.

- For the round 4, where only will be 2 Groups of 2 AIs, the winner of each group, will be the AI that could defeat 2 times their opponent.

- For the final, the winner will be the AI that could defeat 3 times their opponent.

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

First:
Master Belisarius, Thank you for your hard work. This is impressive.

Second:
Will anyone mind if I post my predictions?

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hug, thanks, but I enjoy doing it!

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Of course not!
Here is the only prediction (not guess) that can say: will be very difficult for the God Emperor's AIs, to be in the next round. Think that the problem with the lack of resources and lack of mine-sweeper ships will be too much for them on this round.

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Agree with you completely MB. Have downloaded several of the saves from the games involving my AI and believe that they will run short of resources again and wont get to build the cool technology that they research in the later stages of the game (basically they are building too many Attack ships for a No Bonus game).

Regards,

GE

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

Ok, here the link for the Shadows vs Narn.
Shadows_vs_Narn_G6.zip
Now, I'm starting the first game of the second round: EEE vs Space Vikings.

Sadly, tomorrow I'll go to Buenos Aires again, and will continue the games the next friday.

[ November 30, 2002, 03:07: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

The EEE defeated the Vikings in 260 turns!
They looks like a firm candidate to win the contest!
Here the link: EEE_vs_Vikings_S1.zip

Now, I'm starting the game between the Pyrochette and Toron

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

Pyrochette vs Toron.
Well, I have started this game after the 23hs here, and finished at 05:00! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Then, after 6 hours of combat, the Pyrochette won at the turn 500.
An interesting game. When I was going to sleep, believed that the Toron would be the winners... but was wrong.
Here the link: Pyrochette_vs_Toron_S1.zip

Now, I'm starting the game between Aquilaeian and United Flora. Will let run it, and will see the result when come back to my house the Friday night.

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

Ahhrg, the suspension... Friday night!
Go vikings go!

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

I'm back.
Only had time to see the result between Aquilaeian vs United Flora.
The Aquilaeian won before the turn 370.
Link: Aquilaeian_vs_UFlora_S2.zip

[ November 30, 2002, 03:08: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

Klingons vs Romulans.
This ST war, was a trench war! And the Klingons were the winners because they had a highest score after the turn 500.
Here the link: Klingons_vs_Romulans_S2.zip

[ November 30, 2002, 03:03: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

I know this is a big request, but could you post the AI Versions used for the top 12 AIs that made it?

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

EA vs Namovans.
The EA played a very good game, and defeated the Namovans before the turn 187.
Here the link:
EA_vs_Namovans_S3.zip

Now, I'm starting the game between the Narn and the Jraenar, and after it, will go to sleep.

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But I'm using files that are currently in the download forum.
- EEE, United Flora, Namovans, Pyrochette and Aquilaeian: you can see them posted.
- Klingon, Romulan and Jraenar, from the Last posted God Emperor's AIs.
- Vikings, Toron, EA and Narn, from the Last TDM.

Anyway, I have not problems to post the AI files inside a zip (but without the *.bmp files), but tomorrow.

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

I realize that the EEE are already doing well, but I wonder if they'd do even BETTER if the matches weren't 1 on 1. Their ultra-friendliness might prove even more dangerous in those situations. I've been in games where I've wanted to war with the EEE, but I had more immediate enemies, and those EEE are so darn friendly and so darn STRONG!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Please exclude the EEE. I'm altering most of the strategies due to new knowledge (from PvK) about "missile hunting" and how it can be avoided. Secondly after checking the savegames I decided to alter slightly the design creation and facility construction files.
I would like to have only the most recent of my EEE available, the one I'm currently using, that is. That's why I removed the download link in the Mod-forum some days ago.

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

Hi MB - great idea. Thanks for including my Dra'kol, but as Mephisto pointed out, I tried to keep them true to form as an Intel/Gas race based on their ancestors the Darlok http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif so they would offer some variety in races. Anyway, if you do another series, I would not mind seeing how my revised Piundon AI from the TDM pack fare.

Thanks

-TG

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ok, as you wish Rexxx, but think TerranC wanted to have all the AIs involved in the contest, not the Last Version.

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hi Tampa! A long time without see you!
Ok, no problem, the next time the Piundon will be there.
But I have not included the AIs to my own taste! All the races into the contest were voted for someone.

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

Narn vs Jraenar.
The Narn defeated the Jraenar in less than 200 turns.
Here the link: Narn_vs_Jraenar_S3.zip

Now, I'm starting the game between the Pyrochette and EEE.

[ November 30, 2002, 14:44: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yep, as I wrote in the first post, the peaceful races will have some disadvantage with this system to run the contest... But run a large contest with games including more than 2 races, would be a nightmare.

I have an observation about the EEE: they have lots of fleets with a few ships. Think it's ok fighting against others AIs, but against humans doesn't look so good.

[ November 30, 2002, 14:54: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

Pyrochette vs EEE.
The Pyrochette has a better start than the EEE. But the EEE started to attack the Pyrochette planets with several small fleets, and then, changed the game to their side.
The Pyrochette had several fleets with the "do nothing" syndrome, and then at the turn 365, although think still they could fight and try to win, believe the EEE will win.
Turn 458.
The Pyrochette were able to control the riots, and start to re-construct their empire. Has started an offensive into the EEE territory, and are near in the numbers.
Turn 482.
Although the EEE control most the galaxy, anyway they're loosing by points. A loong and very interesting game.
Turn 500 and the Pyrochette won by points...
Here the link (a heavy file to download!): Pyrochette_vs_EEE_S1.zip

Want to comment a few things:
1) The EEE never used troop transports. Think this is a disadvantage.
2) The Pyrochette won, only because:
a) Were good keeping their Last systems and their planets without riots most the time.
b) Had a good management of the production, to surpass the EEE production, even with less systems.
3) Interesting, but the Pyrochette never won a fast game: Two times at the turn 350, one time at the turn 450 and two times at the turn 500.
4) Sometimes the hardcoded AI behavior is very frustrating... The "do nothing" bug in the fleets or the lack of skills that has the Population Minister to send population to planets without people, or the lack of skills to decide the right targets, can change the course of any game.

Finally, I'm starting to feel myself ashamed and afraid: my two AI's had won all the games... and think that somebody could start to believe that I'm doing something to help them to win...
If somebody feel something like that, I have not problems if this person want to run the games where my AIs are involved.

[ November 30, 2002, 22:54: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">MB, you're right. The EEE prefer more but smaller fleets to a few (very) large ones. Large fleets are very powerful but you can only attack one or two planets - sometimes even in the same system - at the same time. Small fleets are less powerful but you can attack much more planets (if the AI has a good day even in different systems http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ).
In a "normal" game you frequently face more than one enemy, more than one or two enemy fleets. IMO the best answer to these multiple threats are more but smaller fleets.
I agree that larger ones are more dangerous to a human player. However, normally your AI don't face the human opponent at first, the probability of running into a hostile AI is much higher. You're also right, that - in a normal game - this "more fleets strategy" works quite well against other AIs, especially those with large fleets. Thus, it raises the chances to reach midgame at all and not being killed early. In midgame (it means for me being able to colonize rock planets) the EEE I'm currently testing begin to build up larger fleets in their desperate attempt to be a worthy opponent for the human player.

The situation in this contest is quite different. There is only one enemy to be crushed and for this purpose large and powerful fleets are much better. I'm surprised that the EEE survived so long against your Pyrochette.

This fleet thingie is like the quadrature of the circle, there is no perfect answer. The only solution I can imagine would be the ability to control the structure of our AI fleets, that would boost the qualities of any modded AI and make them a much better opponent.
As it is now I like the fact that there are different approaches regarding those "fleet strategies", it protects the game from getting too easy and predictable for the human player. What seems to work well against the EEE might be useless against the Pyrochette. Bad luck... Reload or start a new game... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

EDIT:
Hi MB: Just read your Last post. Bad news, very bad news http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .
Controlling most of the galaxy and losing at the same time is hard, very hard indeed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Looking forward to checking the savegames. I guess the EEE - stubborn as they are - build unit upon unit, not realizing that these efforts don't increase the score.

[ November 30, 2002, 22:53: Message edited by: Rexxx ]

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Good points, and agree 100% with you... Probably, I'll change a bit, the fleets.txt for the next Pyrochette/Aquilaeian Versions.

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Don't be silly.
Sorry for this bluntness but if someone doubts your fairness I would say that this person has a serious problem but not you.

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

Toron vs Vikings.
The Toron played a very good game and defeated the Vikings. The training facilities for ships/fleets plus the AS, good ship designes and fast expansion, are good arguments to win.
The Vikings are great, of course, with good aggressiveness/defensiveness, and very good ship designes, but were unable to stop the Toron at any momment.
Here the link: Vikings_vs_Toron_S1.zip

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

Klingons vs Aquilaeian.
The Klingons expanded a LOT more fast than the Aquilaeian, then, had the possiblity to kill the Aquilaeian very fast!
The Aquilaeian only control 3 systems now (turn 224), but the Klingons started to had the problem with lack of minesweepers and lack of resources... then, don't know if they could finish the Aquilaeian.
Turn 271.
The Aquilaeian killed a big Klingon's fleet into their homeworld system, and has started to rebuild their empire... The Klingons has now resources, but are building only attack ships (no minesweepers).
Turn 342.
The Aquilaeian only control an small part of the galaxy, but now are in the first possition for a short margin.
Turn 350.
The Klingons must face a LOT of riots... their ships are destroyed by lack of maintencance. Really they were very very close to destroy the Aquilaeian, but are paying a high price for the problems with lack of mine-sweepers and lack of resources.
Turn 462.
The Klingons only control a few systems, and nothing can change their fate...
The Aquilaeian killed the Last Klingon's planet, at the turn 498.
Here the link: Klingons_vs_Aquilaeian_S2.zip

[ December 01, 2002, 19:23: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

I couldn't agree more that anything more than a 1 on 1 test would be a nightmare to manage.

I can remember seeing the EEE dreadnoughts, bristling with heavy-mounted ripper beams...brrrrrr!

I can only imagine the horror if the EEE had proven the best AI in the game. The thought that their happy, friendly demeanor hid an absolute monster of an AI opponent would give even us humans the willies!!!

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The stock EEE had to be peaceful/forgiving to make use of the Ancient Race trait at all. An aggressive Gas Giant Race with this racial trait is dead within 50-70 turns. They build an endless stream of colonizers which are dead meat a few turns later, never reaching their destinations.

The EEE in this contest use the - only slightly altered - anger and politics files of their ancestors. Their happy friendly demeanor is their best chance to survive long enough to discover rock planet colonization. From this point on they can build up an empire similar to those of rock planet races. An empire consisting only of Gas Giants isn't an empire it is "patchwork". The Emperor has to travel very far to visit his citizens, lots of systems to be crossed without any colonizable planet.

In a "normal" game when facing a Gas Giant race the best strategy is strike first and strike hard. Their empires crumble very easily in early game, later - when they get the colonization techs - they become much more powerful.

I prefer the peaceful approach for my games as well but for the EEE (IMO any Gas Giant race) it is vitally important.

[ December 01, 2002, 18:53: Message edited by: Rexxx ]

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm convinced that that's a typo/bug in the stock game; IMO the 2000-point Eee should be Mechanoids like their other two options, rather than Ancient.

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

United Flora vs Romulans.
The United Flora defeated the Romulans, before the turn 290. The Romulans never were able to stop the United Flora's waves of ships.
Here the link: UFlora_vs_Romulans_S2.zip

Now, I'm starting a game between 2 strong AIs, and a B5 duel: Narn vs EA.

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

Narn vs EA.
Turn 47.
The Narn is ahead in the numbers... but both races signed a Trade Alliance. Hope they break this treaty... if not, will be a boring game until the turn 500.
Turn 500.
A boooring game... and the EA won by points.
Here the link: Narn_vs_EA_S3.zip

[ December 01, 2002, 22:32: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

MB,
Just wondering whether you could do me a favour and at some point run the Klingons vs the Aquileans on Low Bonus. Would be interested to assess their performance and deficiencies under that condition.
Thanks,

GE

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sure. But give me a few days...

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

Namovans vs Jraenar.
Like in other games, the Namovans had a slow start, but finished using sun destroyers and planet destroyers against the Jraenar... The Jraenar surrender after the turn 455.
Here the link: Namovans_vs_Jraenar_S3.zip

Now, I'm starting a decisive game between the Toron and EEE. The winner will be in the next round.

[ December 02, 2002, 00:09: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

Toron vs EEE.
Turn 50.
Bad news: both races signed a military alliance. Then, probably we will have a new boring game...
Turn 308.
The military alliance is still there... and the Toron is winning by points.
WEIRD!!!!!!! but the EEE had lot of available planets to colonize into their own systems, but are not colonizing the Rock/Ice planets!!
Turn 398.
Finally the EEE has decided to colonize the rock/ice planets, and now are in the first place.
Turn 500.
The EEE won and go to the next round!
Here the link:
Toron_vs_EEE_S1.zip

I'm starting Vikings vs Pyrochette (and will let run the game during the night).
Although the Vikings can't go to the next round, if they are the winners, I will need an extra game to determine the first place in the group.

[ December 02, 2002, 03:24: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

Vikings vs Pyrochette.
The Vikings saved their pride, and crushed the Pyrochette before the turn 190.
Then, will need an extra game to see the first place of this group.
Think this was the more hard of the 3 Groups.

Here the link: Vikings_vs_Pyrochette_S1.zip

[ December 02, 2002, 23:05: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Just checked the savegames and I think I found the explanation:
Around turn 55 the EEE discovered rock planet colonization. They didn't start building rock colonizers because - at this point - they already had the maximum number of colonizing ships the contruction file called for (5). They couldn't use their available ships because all colonizable gas giants were in "friendly" systems and having only a military alliance made it impossible to use them.
Till turn 263 - when they finished their Create Planet ship - nothing happened, no new colonies, just an endless stream of retrofit activities. At some point even the orders from the construction unit file run out. No more construction at all for years and years and...
It took them until turn 325 to create the first Gas Giant, before that they created 12 rock and 9 ice planets (!!!).
At Last they could use one of their colonizers, their empire awoke. At turn 400 they had 88 colonies (from turn 55 to 325 there were no less than 29).
I think the Toron basically had the same problem. They developed Ice Planet colonization around turn 50 but had - at this point - one open colonizer slot and could expand further but very very slow. (At least that's what I'm guessing)

That's why I fear peaceful opponents, the AI respects friendly borders which could be annoying, actually it can kill expansion at all.

If someone has an idea how such a "dead end" can be avoided, please let me know. Researching Stellar Manipulations earlier would reduce the problem but not solve it. The ability of calling for different types of colonizers would be a solution, but that is impossible so far.

Did somebody find a pattern behind creating planets activities? A 12-9-0 result is terrible, at least for Gas Giant races. I asked this question already in http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...;f=23;t=007536 but make assurance double sure... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Have to admit that I never tested any kind of stellar manipulation techs so far.

This contest is just great: it leads to questions I never would have thought of.

Very interesting results. The Toron and the EEE defeated the Vikings, were defeated by the Pyrochette who lost their game against the Vikings.

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Just checked the savegames and I think I found the explanation:
-----
The ability of calling for different types of colonizers would be a solution, but that is impossible so far.
------
.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Why ? Just make colony ship designs with different names for Rock/Ice/Gas and use these names in construction_vehicles file instead of generic "colony ship". Also, be sure to add up "must have" numbers for different colony ships.

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think, I just tried that in the beginning of my EEE modding. Used different names for the colonizers but failed.
Maybe I did something wrong will try it again.

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

It worked. Great. Thanks, Oleg.
Found my first (and only) attempt to do so and found the flaw in it: I didn't adapt the must have numbers accordingly.
Obviously, that penny dropped much later. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

Can we see the standings for the second round?

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hey, can you send me a copy???? I wanted to do somethink like that, but like you in the past, had not success.

Re: AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">For now the AIs in the next round are (could be):

- EEE-Pyrochette (need to play an extra game to see who is first and who second).

- Aquilaeian-(Klingons or United Flora).

- EA-(Namovans or Narn).

[ December 03, 2002, 01:43: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]