Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Of course words are easy to say. Words are how everything has to be communicated. What is the point of that part? It is like stating "english is a language".

I for one am not willing to give up my freedoms for temporary security.

[ March 08, 2003, 20:49: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Let me start by saying 1) I'm in a really cranky mood today, so if you ain't wearing flame proof undies, don't read any further and 2) I support the war on Iraq, but feel deeply for the plight of the average person in Iraq who will feel more pain before they feel any relief.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">A nice sentiment but please, an ounce of reality for just a second. In Iraq one does not simply pack all their belongings, their family pet and 2.5 children into the SUV and the rented U-haul, drive 25 km (16.3 mi) to a new suburb and unload their crap into a new condo and call it a weekend. The average Joe or Joe-ette in Bagdad has many children, nearly no income and very significant family ties. There are no condos available for rent, there is no rapid/easy transportation to look for a new place, etc etc. I'd be surprised if you are even allowed to move in such a highly regulated society! If you do move, you'd better be damned sure that the neighbourhood you move to is Sunni, if you're Sunni, or Kurdish if you're a Kurd. And when the soldiers come, they're there till they want to leave!

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yah, but remember king George MCCVIII (or who ever it was at the time of the American Revolution) was actually a pretty nice guy compared to Sadam. Oh, I know, nobody in Boston liked him 'cause he forced them to drink substandard tea at marked up prices, but at least the colonist could have an audience with him. Good ol' Ben and the boys went away empty handed, but at least they left with their hands still attached!! Sadam is known as the butcher of Bagdad, he has gassed entire populations, he was the one who sat outside of the Iraqi parlement and called the sitting members out one-by-one for public execution when he overthrew the previous regeme.

Now I don't know about you, but when I've got a wife who can be raped, several teenage daughters, and some boys old enough to be conscripted, I might not be so vocal about my displeasure with the king. Give me liberty or give me death is fine, unless the tyrant would rather murder your family before your eyes and then, just for a twist, let you live to dream of the terror every night for the rest of your life.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Must be nice living in New Hampshire.

[ March 08, 2003, 21:02: Message edited by: jimbob ]

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

At Last, a reliable predictor of the chance of war in Iraq http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
http://slate.msn.com/id/2078517/

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Fyron>
What I mean is that if you belive you would have acted diferently than the multitude (billion+) of people living in totalitarian states if you where in their position you are most propably wrong.
Statistically most of the people in these conditions goes with the flow, very few rebel openly, or even in secret.

There needs to be a uniting factor for people to take the risc of plunging themself and their families into certain danger.
Take the Soviet union for example. The Glasnost started the way and when the counter-glasnost coup happened it was the signal for the people to rise. Even then it took time for most people to dare to take action..

What "words are cheap" mean is that it's pretty easy to sit in a secure position i n ademocratic state and complain that people in other situation doessn't risk their lifes instead of living under opression.

I'm not sure what I would do. I hope I would fight against the totalitarian rule but statisticly I would most propably accept the situationa s it is and stay alive.

[ March 09, 2003, 18:43: Message edited by: Ruatha ]

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

QBrigid Pehaps you should go ask that question to the people who are very very lucky to live in highland park Detroit Say the Woodward and Davison area. Or some of the fine mid town locations of Baltimore. Or perhaps even Flint Mich.

They have had to deal with large Groups of troops in their residential neighbourhoods, they have had to deal with a lack of freedom. For them it is not easy to move. Or those areas would not exist. And yes their is a war there it is the so called War on Drugs.

Survival is what keeps a person going. The faint hope that all is not lost. So they go on.

So when Democracy is restored to Iraq do you think that a Shia Muslim will be voted into power ? Or perhaps another Dictator who says Yes when spoken to by the occupation Army ?

I am sorry but I do not think that this is worth the life of one single brave American soldier.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Please do not misunderstand, the point I was trying to make, was that should civilians be killed during an announced war, they may not be victims, but civilian combatants. I certainly would protect my home and country.

As for the ability to throw off the oppression of Saddam, it is possible that enough people do not wish another government. When the Poles wanted freedom, many gave their lives and security to achieve it. The students in Tienamen Square knew what they were facing when they protested the government.

Quoted from Tesco Samoa
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">TS are you implying that all of the people living there have no choice? That a government has required that they remain there, working at a job that is chosen for them. I am not sure I understand you analogy.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

I wonder if any Iraqi truely belive in Saddam's ideology....
I mean, what if many Iraqis, though certainly not all, actualy believe that Saddam Hussein is the good guy?
I'm asking this because in all societies there have to be a certain percentage of the population that actively support their goverment for that goverment to exist. Repression alone would not make it work. You need people to repress other people.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

In response to Aloofi's comments:

Yes, Saddam does try very hard to portray himself to his people as a noble, heroic and righteous ruler who cares for his country. I don't know how many of them (if any) actually believe him.

For a look into the mind of an iraqi citzen, take a look at this site. I think the URL was originally posted here by someone else. As far as I know it's genuine.

It's a blog by an iraqi, being written day to day right now. The guy is educated and observant, and seems to be under no illusions about the nature of Saddam. All the same, he doesn't seem to regard George Bush as his liberator. It's an interesting read, anyway. Take a look.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

By the way, what happened to 86 suitcase nukes that were stolen from Russia by the Russian Mafia years ago?
Have anybody heard how many have been recovered?
They were kind of small, 2Kg of Plutoniu, if i recall correctly, not enough to blow up an entire city, but could take out something like 4 blocks, definitevely a terrorizing weapon.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Aloofi: Are you sure that isn't just an "urban legend"? It seems somewhat unlikely/unverified to me, that's a lot of nukes to go missing without world-wide media hysteria.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Ruatha:
So you would rather be a statistic than a person?

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That all depends on what you mean by "believe in" his ideology.

I'm 100% sure they believe it gives them money and power. What more do you need to believe in (at least, from their perspective)?

[ March 10, 2003, 23:48: Message edited by: Krsqk ]

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

I kind of doubt the "suitcase nukes", if they exist, would destroy 4 city blocks.

Fat Man, the plutonium bomb that was dropped on Nagasaki, had 6 kilograms of plutonium. It essentially wiped out the city (21 kiloton bLast)

If you can get critical mass from 2kg, I think the boom would be at least in the kiloton range.

Phoenix-D

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Found these over at Seti's forum:

Fun With The French

Donald Rumsfeld: "Going to war without the French is like going
deer hunting without your accordion."

David Letterman: "France wants more evidence [of Iraqi violations].
The Last time France wanted more evidence, it rolled right through
France with a German flag."

Dennis Miller: "The only way the French are going in is if we tell
them we found truffles in Iraq."

Jay Leno: "I don't know why people are surprised that France won't
help us get Saddam out of Iraq. After all, France wouldn't help us
get the Germans out of France!"

Rep. Roy Blunt, R-Mo.: "Do you know how many Frenchmen it takes to
defend Paris? It's not known, it's never been tried."

Blunt again: "Somebody was telling me about the French Army rifle
that was being advertised on eBay the other day -- the description
was:
'Never shot. Dropped once.'"

French President Jacques Chirac: "As far as I'm concerned, war
always means failure."

John Xereas: "Do you know it only took Germany three days to
conquer France in World War II? And that's because it was raining,"

French Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin was applauded at the
Security Council after he spoke out against U.S. war plans Friday.
They've taken their own precautions against al-Qa'ida. To prepare for
terrorist attack, each Frenchman is urged to keep duct tape, a white
flag, and a three-day supply of mistresses around the house.

House Speaker Dennis Hastert is so angry at France for opposing White
House policy on Iraq that he's proposed requiring orange warning
labels on every bottle of imported French wine. Let's guess. The
warning label will read, Just Two Glasses Could Make Dictators with
Mustaches Appear Less Threatening Than They Really Are. ---Argus
Hamilton

Dennis Miller: What do you expect from a culture and a nation that
exerted more of its national will fighting against Disney World
and Big Mac's than the Nazis?

An old saying:
Raise your right hand if you like the French....
Raise both hands if you are French.

Q: Why are there so many tree-lined boulevards in France?
A: Germans like to march in the shade.

John McCain, U.S. Senator from Arizona: "You know, the French remind
me a little bit of an aging actress of the 1940s who was still
trying to dine out on her looks but doesn't have the face for it."

Conan O'Brien: "You know why the French don't want to bomb Saddam
Hussein? Because he hates America, he loves mistresses and wears a
beret. He is French, people."

Jay Leno: "Some members of Congress are so upset with this thing
with France that they want to impose trade sanctions against French
products. They want to ban French products like Evian. And you
thought Hollywood celebrities were against the war before....!"

Q: What did the mayor of Paris say to the German Army as they
entered the city in WWII?
A: "Table for 100,000 m'sieur?"

Jay Leno: "France and Germany still say they are still our allies.
You know, the same way Bill and Hillary are husband and wife."

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think this has been posted before. And stop bagging the French. All they have done is state the position that 80% of the people in the world back.
*Askan takes a minute to rip the Union Jack out of his country's flag and replaces it with the Tricolour*

Fun With The Americans
"War is how Americans learn geography" - Mangled from somewhere http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Askan

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well in the end of the Gulf War the people did rebel against Saddam. Two things happened
1) The Basra massacre. Saddam's most potent enemy, the conscript soldiers of ethnic miniorities sent to Kuwait, were completely annhilated by Norman as they fled back to Basra.
2) The Republican Guard was allowed to squash any uprisings without fear of suffering the same fate as the conscripted army.

Nobody cared of the fate of the Iraqi people at that time. The aim of the Gulf War was not to otherthrow Saddam. That justification for an attack on Iraq came up somewhere between he's developing Weapons of Mass Destruction and I've got lots of bombs, might as well use em.

Askan

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think this has been posted before. And stop bagging the French. All they have done is state the position that 80% of the people in the world back.
*Askan takes a minute to rip the Union Jack out of his country's flag and replaces it with the Tricolour*

Fun With The Americans
"War is how Americans learn geography" - Mangled from somewhere http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Askan</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The French will continue to be the target of my scorn irregardless of objections from down under. The French have worked very hard to earn their place of irrelevancy in the world. Their cowardliness is exceeded only by their ability to over rate themselves. Personally, I suspect that the WWII era German salute originated from telling the Frogs to talk to the hand.

On a more serious note, we should all remember that France has been no friend to the third world. They still maintain a colonial empire, and are often a supplier of arms for regional conflicts. I have no doubt that we will find evidence of French handy work when we disarm Iraq.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well in the end of the Gulf War the people did rebel against Saddam. Two things happened
1) The Basra massacre. Saddam's most potent enemy, the conscript soldiers of ethnic miniorities sent to Kuwait, were completely annhilated by Norman as they fled back to Basra.
2) The Republican Guard was allowed to squash any uprisings without fear of suffering the same fate as the conscripted army.

Nobody cared of the fate of the Iraqi people at that time. The aim of the Gulf War was not to otherthrow Saddam. That justification for an attack on Iraq came up somewhere between he's developing Weapons of Mass Destruction and I've got lots of bombs, might as well use em.

Askan</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Especially the Australians. The way your country treated refugees and immigrants from Iraq after the Last war was not all that kind. Interring them on an island while their fate was determined (should I say predetermined) by the courts. So it is pretty sure that Australia didn’t care much about their fate, at least not enough to offer them a place to live in freedom.

Also, you stated a figure of 80% against the war. Time to put up or shut up, where dod you get your numbers, The Iraqi FREE press?

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, but realistic.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Read the international press, watch the demos in the world against the war, watch how many countries vote against an Iraq war in the UN. It is guessed that roughly 70 % to 80 % of the world population is against an Iraq war. Of course it is hard to poll in countries like China and I would guess that many people around the world have much more pressing problems on their hands then a war against the Iraq so they are indifferent to it. However, to sum it up, one could savely say that quite a majority is against an US war against the Iraq if not backed by another UN resolution.. But as it seems, the US won't get one.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, if not 4 maybe 6, but it doesn't make Manhatan an oversized football camp. It have been estimated that concrete buildings are capable of stoping the bLast wave from these mini-nukes. Also, it might be less than 2kg, though I think I remember it was 2kg. I'll do a search on this to see if I find this info Online. I got this info originally from a military magazine.

Oh, and the nukes dropped in Japan didn't destroy the whole city in either case. I'll have to get some numbers before saying what percentage survived from each city.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Askan:
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I say, the more we bag the French the better! Hehehehe They've ceased to be militarily relevent to the world stage (as has Canada, Australia, etc) but still demand that they be respected as a military power (unlike Canada and Australia). Notice that almost no one is making fun of the Germans? The Russians? It's because the French are ... mimes... that won't shut up!

Askan:
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oooo, that's a good one!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif I agree whole heartedly that we can all do well to make more fun of the US. That said, have you heard the one about the farmer from Saskatchewan who...

Thermodyne:
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh, I have very little doubt of this. Yes, the US did sell lots of stuff to Sadam, and yes, many nations have unclean hands when it comes to Iraq, but France (to distinguish the people from the Government to be fair) has been the largest supplier to Sadam since before gunpowder was invented. Personally, I think that France wants "peace" because Sadam is one of their best customers, and possibly to hide their complicity in Sadam's regime. Russia would also like peace, because Sadams' Iraq owes them billions and billions of dollars - a new republic will probably ignore the debt, though I'm unsure of the international rules here. The long and the short, nobody (including the US) has clean hands here... so calling the US a hypocrite is, well, kinda hypocritical.

Take home message: Tibet is the only country on earth that does not have dirty hands regarding Iraq. The UN should sponsor a Tibetan invasion force 1 million Shirpa's strong to put Sadam right.

Mephisto:
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yah, and the majority of the world did such a good job in holding back the atrocities in Rawanda, Yugoslovia, Haiti, etc. etc. etc. The majority of the world is spineless, and evidently believes that George Dubbya having a red neck is more a sin than Sadam's outrages against the people of Iran, Kuwait, the Kurds, and very possibly Isreal and the USA.

In summary:
George Bush = Hypocrite + Inbred
Sadam = Murderer + Instigator

I dare say I'll stand up to say which one is bad, and which is worse.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

I belive the Tibetians would like to invade Tibet first, considering the situation there!

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Hey, what's up with those rumors of no war until next year?
Is it another disinformation or the Yanks are really planning to have all those pretty little tiny tanks in the Saudi noses until next year? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Hi all.

I have a few replies to make in this thread... But I will not be able to for a few days. Things are really really busy in life right now. And I do not want to post something that I do not mean or is hard to understand ( due to tesco speak ) , or will offend people.

Keep the debate going.

And Keep the name calling out. Especially when it comes to countries and cultures.

Unless their Dutch http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Refugees and immigrants after the Last war? You mean refugees everyday. On one hand the Australian government says Saddam leads a brutal and repressive regime, on the other we send Iraqi refugees home because their case for asylum was not good enough. I am so disgusted with it that I get sick in the stomach. I march, I protest, I write to the papers, I email political parties and I scorn anyone who accepts this inhumane treatment of refugees.
Just because I'm Australian doesn't mean I have to support my governement when it is clearly wrong.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well I pulled those numbers out of the air, just as a rough guestimate. My sources are usually the Sydney Morning Herald, the UK Guardian, the Jakarta Post and I even occasionally watch that stupid NBC Today show that screens here at about 1am. But Mephisto is correct, the evidence is eveywhere, most notably the UN Security Council at the moment.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well all the permanent members of the Security Council are very guilty when its comes to arming bastards. Its hard to forget that Powell's picture of a "Terrorist Poison and Chemical Factory" was a British built one and that Saddam got various cultures of bacteria, including anthrax, from the US in the 80s. Basically what was given to the Iraqis in the 80s is now used as a justification for war by the same people who gave him the nasty toys in the first place.

All this hypocrisy is driving me mad. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Askan

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Will it be war or not?
I don't believe all i hear. A lot of desinformation goes around when war is in the horizon. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Quote:

"TEL AVIV — The U.S. military has been ordered to launch a war against Iraq on March 18, an Israeli official said in a televised report.

Israeli government monitor, Michael Gurdus, reported on late Tuesday that the order was relayed by U.S. Central Command to all American forces in the Persian Gulf. Gurdus told Israel's Channel 2 television that he heard the order being relayed to U.S. fighter-jet pilots and others over U.S. military radio communications he intercepted.

Gurdus is regarded as the leading communications monitor in the Middle East and works for Israel radio and television. He has broken numerous stories because of his ability to intercept and understand foreign-language civilian and radio broadcasts and communications. He said the U.S. military, in its radio communications, refers to Iraq as "bad cows" and "kabab", Middle East Newsline reported.
On Monday, Israel's media reported that the United States had demanded that senior Israeli officials stop issuing predictions of when the war would erupt. Israeli defense officials have concluded that the United States plans to strike Iraq after March 17, the deadline set for Iraq to answer questions regarding its missile and weapons of mass destruction programs.

Israeli defense officials have concluded that the United States plans to strike Iraq after March 17, the deadline set for Iraq to answer questions regarding its missile and weapons of mass destruction programs.

Pentagon sources dismissed the Israeli report. But they said the U.S. military in Kuwait has already been placed on high alert, and that the preparations for war will intensify over the weekend.

U.S. officials have reported an increase in air missions in Iraq and said President George Bush does not plan to wait weeks until any confrontation with Baghdad. They said the United States has more than 225,000 soldiers in the Iraqi theater of operations and has focused operations on southern Iraq.

"In order to keep the pressure on the Iraqi regime to disarm we have stepped up Southern Watch operations," Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said on Tuesday. "We are now flying several hundred sorties a day, with 200 or 300 over the southern no-fly zone."

The U.S. bombing missions included targets in western Iraq near the Jordanian border. Meyers said F-15E fighter-jets dropped munitions against an air defense radar in an airfield in the H-3 region, used in 1991 to launch medium-range missiles against Israel.

The U.S. military has also ordered accelerated testing and production of new weapons for the war in Iraq. On Tuesday, the Pentagon said it tested a 21,000-bomb that contains 18,000 pounds of high explosives and meant to destroy Iraqi bunkers. The Pentagon has also signed new contracts for the accelerated production and delivery of the Patriot PAC-3 missile defense system. A PAC-3 battery has been deployed in Kuwait and U.S. Central Command hopes to station additional facilities in areas of the Persian Gulf and Middle East. "

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Michael Gurdus past ability at prediction notwithstanding, this report is highly suspect. The US military command doesn't announce specific orders of battle to it's fighter pilots over open channels a full week in advance. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Geoschmo

[ March 12, 2003, 20:00: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In some circles, Gurdus have been known for a long time to be "friendly" with the Mossad. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
I don't think he would say anything that "The Shadow" doesn't want him to say... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Maybe its not over oil, or terrorism, or anything like that.

Maybe the military just needs to do some empirical testing of the new weapons on the market? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ March 12, 2003, 21:01: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Come on, this war is because Saddam REALLY have nukes, and the US can't probe it, but have to take him out.
The only choice i see is between going to war this year or going next year, but there is going to be a war, and time is on Saddam Hussein's side.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Sorry, I should have had a smiley in that post, and a quote to show my intended level of seriousness.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Of course words are easy to say. Words are how everything has to be communicated. What is the point of that part? It is like stating "english is a language".

I for one am not willing to give up my freedoms for temporary security.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Words are cheap, also easy when one doesn't have to prove them by action.

Yeah, yeah. Someone has already said them. But when they are that good, they bear repeating.

If you don't understand what they mean, look around your local community for some WWII veterans. They can probably explain them to you a lot better than I can.

[ March 12, 2003, 21:58: Message edited by: raynor ]

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Of course words are easy to say. Words are how everything has to be communicated. What is the point of that part? It is like stating "english is a language".

I for one am not willing to give up my freedoms for temporary security.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Words are cheap, also easy when one doesn't have to prove them by action.

Yeah, yeah. Someone has already said them. But when they are that good, they bear repeating.

If you don't understand what they mean, look around your local community for some WWII veterans. They can probably explain them to you a lot better than I can.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well. The most WW2 vet's I'll find will be in Germany.
Should I go ask them what it means??

(Ofcourse I can ask the Finns, they REALLY know about it!!!!!, you ask them ! They were attacked by both the Russians and the Germans and fought to protect their homes and families.)

What I really mean and what so many seems to fail to understand is something I will try to be really pedagogic about here:

It's so easy sitting in your comfy chair sayin "Fight for your freedom Iraquis, afgans tibetians etc etc"
It's much harder when you are actually living in that situation, riscing your life, your family and friends lifes for a cause that will most propably fail.
So saying that YOU should fight if you where living there is hypocrisy of the worst kind!
It's much easier to fight if you're in a army with your buddies backing you up and a well functioning structure behind you.
Yes, alot of people fight in wars and I'm pretty convinced I would too. But to for a moment belive that you are a better person than the millions living under oppression who doesnt dare to do anything about it is demeaning to those people.

I do not know what I would do in that situation but most likely I am as most people and would try to stay alive, meaning I wouldn't take my grandpas rifle and try to kill of the entire Iraqi army.

Those who says that those who doesn't fight for their freedom doesn't deserve it are propagatinng for anarchy.
Most people living in a democracy are by their definition not worthy of that.
I for one wish to live in a society where everyone are treated equally, disregarding their will to fight and die.
I will go to war to defend those who doesn't wish to fight. This does not mean that I would start a futile guerilla war if I where living in an altogether different situation, as in a well controlled totalitarian state.

I don't know if there is any other way I can get this message across to you. But I would like to again say; Do not for one second belive that you are braver than most of the chinese (as an example) people who live under oppression. You just have a better situation and are able to voice your belifs even if they are way wrong.

(This above has no bearing whatsoever on the discussion if there should be a war in Iraq or not!)
In the previous liberation of Kuwait I sent in my application to my army to go along, but they thought it was more important that I finished my med school instead of serving there as infantry guarding our field hospital.
Now my goverment firmly opposes any attack upon another nation without the approval of the UN, I back them in this decision. For arguments see much of what others have stated in this thread. If need be I can send some more arguments aswell. The main point being that we decide this together in the UN. As to what I belive the UN should decide I have already stated that I'm beginning to think that perpahs a war might eventually be necessary, but there is as of now no need to rush it.

[ March 13, 2003, 16:00: Message edited by: Ruatha ]

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

The problem with those opressed chinesse is that many of them are perfectly happy, believe in communism and don't feel oppressed at all.
I've never understood why is so hard to believe that people can be happy under a dictactorship.

Let me ask you, if you were communist wouldn't you be happy under a communist regime and would you despised the market economy system that puts you in the hands of foreign corporations?

Many many Pashtun were perfectly happy under the Taliban, because the Taliban represented their beliefs and way of live, plus the Taliban brought peace and order to Afghanistan after 22 years of brutal Soviet ocupation and civil war.

The way I see it, democracy is only good to let Muslim Fundamentalist blow themselves up massacring innocent civilians, democracy is incapable of striking back with the full force of their military wiping out the terrorist supporters without worriying if they were civilians or not. As long as there is a terrorist supporter there will be terrorists. That's the way it is, and we can't change it.

I would take a dictatorship that represents my interests any day over democracy.

.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

It seems like there are many countries where every able bodied person is required to serve some amount of time in the armed services. This is not the case in the United States. I wonder how that would affect most USA-ian's perspective if that happened in the States.

Did anyone read Heinlein's Starship Troopers or see the movie? In that fictional story, you couldn't vote unless you served a stint in the military. I wonder how that would work out if it was implemented in the US?

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You mean like during the Vietnam war?

Quote:

Did anyone read Heinlein's Starship Troopers or see the movie? In that fictional story, you couldn't vote unless you served a stint in the military. I wonder how that would work out if it was implemented in the US?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nitpick: it was federal service, and not limited to the military. Go reread the book, and ignore the movie since it was made by someone with an axe to grind against Heinlein.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Of course you would. How do you think dictators get and keep power? Not by themselves of course. It's on the strength of a loyal, self-interested group of supporters like yourself that are rewarded with wealth, power and position for their service and obedience to the dictator. And If the dictator did not represent your own personal interests you would accept that as well? I suppose you would have to. Living in a dictatorship you would not have any other choice. That's kind of the point.

Geoschmo

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

For some interesting info about the position of the US gov.......

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/...826528748.html

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ah, no trolling here, Wardad. No cookies today. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It’s a bit thin, perhaps the Branch Davidians had a plan too, or perhaps Ruby Ridge was really a renegade think tank. Seriously guys, we war game everyone, and we do papers on almost everything that you can imagine. I would have expected a quote from one of the respectable think tanks that ring the beltway here.

Clinton had no desire to remove Saddam, he was too busy emulating him. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ah, no trolling here, Wardad. No cookies today. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hey that’s not trolling, it’s human nature.

Anyone know why France has so many tree lined boulevards?

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ah, no trolling here, Wardad. No cookies today. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hey that’s not trolling, it’s human nature.

Anyone know why France has so many tree lined boulevards?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, please enlighten me! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It’s a bit thin, perhaps the Branch Davidians had a plan too, or perhaps Ruby Ridge was really a renegade think tank. Seriously guys, we war game everyone, and we do papers on almost everything that you can imagine. I would have expected a quote from one of the respectable think tanks that ring the beltway here.

Clinton had no desire to remove Saddam, he was too busy emulating him. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think the point of the article was the the current crop of US administrators are the ones who came up with this. Like Wolfy, Rummy and others. So if Wolfy wrote a paper telling of his plans for US world dominiation and then got power and his ideas came to fruition is it just a coincidence?

And as people are still giving the French a hard time I'm going to continue with my Fun with Americans series of mangled quotes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

If the Americans are happy with George W then Clinton was unnecessarily brilliant - Mangled from somewhere yet again.

Askan
(Who does not want to get in a Democrats vs Republican argument because he can't really tell the difference between biege and off white)

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In the U.S., we'll go on and on about the VAST differences between Republicans and Democrats. But, as you know, they are pretty much the same compared to the different political parties in France. I think someone said their Communist party has as much chance of winning an election as their Fascist party, etc.

Has anyone else heard that France has a standing policy with terrorists? France won't extradite if the terrorists agree not to blow up stuff in their country.

France and Russia have extremely lucrative oil deals with Iraq, right? But, while it is PC to say that the U.S. only wants to invade Iraq for their oil, it's not PC to say that France and Russia DON'T want us to invade Iraq... because of the oil. Instead, it is simply a matter of the French wanting to throw their weight around.

Someone else suggested that the reason why France and Germany don't want a war with Iraq is because they are pretty much safe from terrorism now that everyone is focusing on the States. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Answer: Because the German Army enjoys marching in the shade.

New questions: Of Iraqi imports, what portion come from France?

What is the amount of difference between the amount of French goods sold to Jordan, and the amount shipped to Jordan?

What four items should each French household have incase of a terror attack?

Observations:

As seen on a popular auction; “For sale, French infantry rifle, never fired and only dropped once.”

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Cool, now we razz the guys from down under, but only in fun.

Where is the Australian governments seat of power? The place where people speak and Aussies jump?

Personally I think we should call them Ralians, it’s a better fit with the forum.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Is it about the oil....partially

But I have a good solution to this so called oil crisis...and the arab control of it.

WPEC Wheat Producing Economic Countries

You want to keep bumping up the price of oil and cut of a vital resource to us...how does $50 a bushel of grain sound to you?

I guess that would be wrong because we are starving your people...same can be said when an economy and lifestyle dependant on oil is charged exburant prices for that oil. What does all that farm equipment run on...sunshine...yeah right.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

The US Airforce began to limit separations of some trained personnel. This is just one more indication that we are in fact going to have a shooting war.

By Staff Sgt.A.J.Bosker
Air Force Print News
03/14/03 - WASHINGTON -- The assistant secretary of the Air Force for manpower and reserve affairs has authorized the use of Stop-Loss to retain specific skills needed to meet national security objectives. Effective May 2, 43 officer and 56 enlisted specialties will be affected by Stop-Loss.
"We do not take this action lightly," said Secretary of the Air Force Dr. James G. Roche. "Stop-Loss is designed to preserve critical skills essential to supporting the global war on terrorism, while ensuring we're prepared to meet other contingencies."
"We've implemented Stop-Loss to ensure we have the necessary skilled personnel to conduct operations," said Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. John P. Jumper. "We'll use it only as long as necessary to accomplish our mission."
Stop-Loss is being implemented across the active duty, Air Force Ready Reserve and Air National Guard for the affected career fields in the ranks of airman through colonel, according to Maj. Teresa L. Forest, chief of Air Force retirements and separation policy at the Pentagon.
Both the secretary and chief of staff are acutely aware that the Air Force is an all-volunteer force and that this action, while essential to meeting the service's worldwide obligations, is inconsistent with the fundamental principles of voluntary service.
"We take Stop-Loss seriously and are working hard to ensure the lives of our airmen, their families and their civilian employers are not disrupted any longer than is necessary to meet our national commitments," Jumper said.
Therefore, a waiver process will be implemented for those people with unique circumstances.
"We are doing our best to minimize this disruption," Roche said. "And we will look at unique circumstances on a case-by-case basis and do all we can to offer appropriate relief."
"We understand the individual sacrifices that our airmen and their families will be making," Jumper said. "We appreciate their unwavering support and dedication to our nation."