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Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale

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Originally posted by PvK:
GE's Mystic is _2S_3?_ ! Seems to me you are spoiled by Arco's great magic, if you call this "nonexistant blood/death".

The random picks on the mystic are elemental only, unlike the astrologer which is any kind of magic.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale

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Originally posted by Blitz:
But I love fliers. I use Vanheim almost exclusively in MP these days, due to their amazing combination of Einheres, Valkries, Vans, combat magic, the best pretender god available, and the second best recruitable SC's (I'd rank the recuperating, regenerating, elemental fortituded, cloud trapeezing, mistformed Tuatha #1).

Niefel Jarls are pretty scary, too. Quicknessed, Breath of Wintered, and can forge their own wraith swords or Skullfaces for Soul Vortex.

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1) The Myrmidons compare well to Ulm heavy infantry. Shielded, very high prot. They are more expensive than Ulm HI, but they are also elite and have an excellent morale (Ulm morale is bad). In sufficient numbers, they should give a very solid center (which IME harmonizes with flying into the enemy rear). Comparing to Ulm, you've got different but similarly good HI, without the low morale and weak magic of Ulm. Does Ulm look impossibly weak to you

Unfortunately you are missing one very important point. The Myrmidons are equipped with a short sword. Damage 5, length 1, attack 0, defense 0. It's a good thing they have better than average morale, because even broadsword infantry get a riptose chance. This, combined with a massive 8 encumbrance makes their very good basic stats decieving. Combine that with their higher cost in both resources (35 under sloth) and coin, and this is not a comprable unit to Ulm in real-world terms. And Ulm isn't exactly the state of the art in HI anyway. But the most limiting factor is of course their excessive resource cost. They require more resources than any human HI in the game, save the Zweihander.

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2) The Icarids do look weak, but the blessed Wind Riders, Wind Lord, and Ircarid Champion (with items), ESPECIALLY combined with a Shedu (!), could I think be made into a nearly unstoppable stomp rear force. They just need enough critical mass to overwhelm. Meanwhile, you have a sold force of heavy infantry to hit them from the other side. I don't think that needs much improvement, but rather, mass and ... timing. Probably try to time the fliers to hit the rear shortly after the Myrmidons engage the main battle line. In my experience, you can provide mass to your strong fliers with weaker fliers - which I would expect to be nicely filled by the ordinary Icarids - they are the "cannon fodder" of the flying elite. Expect to lose a few, but they should be a force multiplier by keeping your elite fliers from getting overwhelmed even if they are flying into a large enemy force.

This is a good point. A mixed squad of icarids and wind riders is indeed better than one of riders alone, although the attrition rate is very poor. I continualy bring up the comparison with Vanheim, which I feel is appropriate as they both feature fliers. Even forgetting Vanheim's obvious advantages in cavalry and infantry, the valkrie is clearly superior to the GE fliers. It's cheaper, has glamour, and is also sacred.

A note about bless effects with GE. Taking a strong blessing is more difficult with GE, given their military weakness in the early game. A combat pretender is nearly essential, even moreso when you consider that GE's bless troops take much longer than most to come Online. Your 2-3 blessed fliers won't make a lick of difference when those 30 BF Ulm rangers show up with their POD and Ulmish infantry. Bless effects also restrict your ability to compensate for GE's weak nature and nonexistant blood/death magics. A pretender can only do so much, and taking a strong bless effect for a few indisputably overcosted fliers is a bad idea.

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Especially if you throw a Shedu into the mix as well.

I can't imagine a scenario where a Shedu combined with blessed wind riders could be anywhere near cost efficient. The Shedu is a 125-point pretender with poor bless options, limited item slots, a severe fatigue problem, a vulnerability to astral mages that must be overcome, and no inherant resistances or useful combat abilities. For a nation like Arcoscephale, with a wide range of combat pretenders... both flying and non flying... he's quite possibly the most useless unit in the game. [/QB][/quote]

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale

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GE's Mystic is _2S_3?_ ! Seems to me you are spoiled by Arco's great magic, if you call this "nonexistant blood/death".

The mystic's 3 random picks are in the elemental fields. The Astrologer has a true random pick. This does indeed translate into a complete absence of blood and death magic.

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As I just wrote, blessing is optional. But Shedu's Earth and Astral are both reasonable blessings. Every point of Earth magic will give your Shedu +1 DR, so maybe consider a 9 Earth blessing, giving the Shedu 16 base protection, your blessed troops (and Priestesses) +4 protection and +4 reinvigoration. 8 + Earth protection and 230 base hit points counts as pretty formidable "resistances" to almost everything.

A Shedu with level 9E and 4S costs... are you ready for this? 468 points. That's with no castle, no scales. Nothning but a dubious bless effect. Give it up man, the Shedu is horrible, and yes he may well be the most useless unit in the game when you consider Arcoscephale's other choices for a pretender god. This isn't a case where you can say "well slingers are pretty good patrolers haha". No. This unit sucks. It has no redeeming qualities whatsoever. It's overcosted, has no item slots, cannot provide a decent blessing, and isn't anywhere near what the wurm or virtue is as an early expansion aid. He's horrible, and it's almost amusing to see people try to defend him. Sometimes you can make an absolute statement about something. Yes he has the highest hit points of any mobile. He still sucks. Sorry.

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Still seems to me like you are likely looking at GE as an alternative to standard Arco, without appreciating the comparison to Ulm and nations with flying strike forces (who generally do not have strong HI at all).

Well, it is an alternative to standard Arcoscephale, isn't it? And let's look at the other nations with fliers shall we? Vanheim has Vans and Einheres. Caelum has the temple guard, which may be capitol-only, but let's not forget mammoths, which are fairly strong on the front lines. These are the only nations with strong recruitable fliers, and both of these have superior ground troops to Arcoscephale. Caelum also has the Seraphs, which are stronger than the mystics, and a stealthy 3-strength flying priest. Vanheim's priests are amazing SC's. Priestesses are very good, but even if you concede the top priest spot to her, it's not like either of Vanheim or Caelum are lacking in the mage or priest areas either.

Myrmidons cannot go toe to toe with either Einheres or temple guards... let alone mammoths. GE has strong fliers, yes... but they are overcosted and do not have comparable ground support to either of the other "flying" nations.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale

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Niefel Jarls are pretty scary, too. Quicknessed, Breath of Wintered, and can forge their own wraith swords or Skullfaces for Soul Vortex.

I'd probably rank those #3, on the basis that they can't cloud trapeeze, aren't stealthy, and cost more than either of the other two. I believe they do come with a Jotun Longsword though? Maybe the best standard weapon around. If they were WWDDD and could vortex out of the box, they would be crazy.

My top recruitable SC's:

1) Tuatha
2) Hangadrott/Vanjarl/Vanadrott
3) Neifel Jarl
4) Sidhe Lord
5) King of the Deep

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale

Quote:

Originally posted by PvK:
As I just wrote, blessing is optional. But Shedu's Earth and Astral are both reasonable blessings. Every point of Earth magic will give your Shedu +1 DR, so maybe consider a 9 Earth blessing, giving the Shedu 16 base protection, your blessed troops (and Priestesses) +4 protection and +4 reinvigoration.

A Shedu pretty much asks to be played as a bless....since it sure as hell isn't any good for anything else: You can't slap on gear to turn into mean wafflestomper at all, due to lack of slottage, and it's not really serviceable as an SC due to his severe and incurable encumberance problems.

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8 + Earth protection and 230 base hit points counts as pretty formidable "resistances" to almost everything.

You'll be surprised how little this matters when the Shedu has no regenerative ability, and spends the battle passed out on the floor.

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Trampling and 30-damage hoof are not bad.

If he USED his 30-damage hoof attack, that would be great. He doesn't, because he fancies trampling instead. This vastly bumps his his reinvigoration needs....but he has no slottage to spend on it. If you're really fond of the entire trample-fu, the Fat Momma does a better job of this: Same lousy encumberance, same trample-fu problems, but she has humanoid slottage, is quite tough, AND has regeneration. Also, no astral weakness, and is 50 points cheaper! While her encumberance cannot be considered an asset, at least with humanoid slots, it can be compensated for. The Shedu gets benched fairly early.

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Yes he often gets killed if sent against a group all alone. Combined with a flying force that is formidable by itself, though, it's two deadly forces that go great together.

This is serviceable. I didn't pay 125 points for that, though.

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He won'd get swarmed while there are enough fliers swarming around him with Guard Commander orders. Again, adding multiple fliers with different strengths and weaknesses together, can let them cover for each others' weaknesses.

Wind Riders are outlandishly expensive in both resources and gold...difficult to afford under Sloth. Also, if everyone is set to guard commander, the entire group routs the moment somebody bites it. And somebody will probably bite it that way. You can partially offset this by towing around a groundpounder team in the back, but then you've shot your flying army in the foot: It's no longer a flying army.

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I say all this not to assert he's the "best" choice, but to point out that he's far from weak or "most useless" (tm, pet peeve).

I'd have to say that yes, he is definitely weak. Useless, though...well, technically, useless is an absolute term. You don't get more useless, you're just useless. The Shedu manages to avoid being "most useless", though, only by edging out a few even crappier pretender choices, like the "nerfed into oblivion" Sphinx, who is completely overshadowed by otherwise similar and cheaper options like the Oracle or Statue, which can actually still be teleported. The Sphinx, being devoid of teleportation, manages to land the prize here because his physical toughness is meaningless if he can never bring it to bear. Thus, the Sphinx still holds the crown for "crappiest", in my book.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale

Quote:

A Shedu pretty much asks to be played as a bless....since it sure as hell isn't any good for anything else: You can't slap on gear to turn into mean wafflestomper at all, due to lack of slottage, and it's not really serviceable as an SC due to his severe and incurable encumberance problems.

Let's try to make UberShedu shall we?

Here's the BEST Shedu I can manage.

Shedu
SSSSSS EEEE DDDD
Dominion 5

Amulet of Resiliance
Starshine Skullcap
Pendant of Luck

Summon Earthpower, Invulnerability, Astral Shield, Soul Vortex, Erthrealness, attack rear.

Yours for only 466 points!

By comparison:

Ghost King
AA WW EEE DDDD
Dominion 5

Sword of Quickness
Charcoal Shield
Starshine Skullcap
Elemental Armor
Boots of Quickness
Amulet of Spell Resistance
Pendant of Luck

Mirror Image, Soul Vortex, Invulnerability, Breath of Winter, Mistform, attack rear

291 points.

Which would you rather have?

[ June 20, 2004, 21:35: Message edited by: Blitz ]

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale

Certainly the GK. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

However, the GK really doesn't play to Arco's strengths, as the priestesses can no longer heal your GK. Plus I'd buy more magic. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale

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Certainly the GK.

However, the GK really doesn't play to Arco's strengths, as the priestesses can no longer heal your GK. Plus I'd buy more magic.

You could take SSSSSS in addition and the GK would still be cheaper. Although that gets me thinking...

What if the Shedu had 20-point paths like the GK? Would he be really so bad then? In fact he'd be pretty damn good. He'd still have hella limited slots, but he might just be the king of the caster SC's. High hit points, lots of magic, but with limited slots.

Hrmmmm.

Lemme see (gets out mod tools)

Nooshedu w/ 20 point paths
FF AA WW EEE SSSSS DDD NNN
Dominion 5
Fortress
Order 1
Sloth 1
Misfortune 1

Still damn expensive to make a rainbow out of, but that's a lot better value for a 125 point chassis. He's still limited in the endgame because of no slots, but at least he's a workable rainbow with high hit points and nice magical diversity. He's STILL no ghost king, but I'd use him.

I can't wait for the Posts about how overpowered a 20-point path Shedu is. Bring it on.

[ June 20, 2004, 21:59: Message edited by: Blitz ]

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale

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Originally posted by Blitz:
It has no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

Of course it has redeeming qualities. It has earthpower, invulnerability, luck, body ethereal, and astral shield. It's also a flying trampler, which allows it to smash normal armies.

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Myrmidons cannot go toe to toe with either Einheres or temple guards... let alone mammoths.

No infantry can go toe to toe with mammoths and expect to not take severe losses. There are virtually no infantry that can fight very well against Einheres, and temple guards are even more resource limited than Myrmidons.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale

Quote:

Originally posted by Blitz:
Here's the BEST Shedu I can manage.

Shedu
SSSSSS EEEE DDDD
Dominion 5

You wasted a huge number of points on the death magic, since it is totally unnecessary for fatigue purposes.

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Which would you rather have?

I can't tell you the answer to that without knowing the parameters of the game.