Re: A message from Acro
 

OK folks, time to chill out.

Frank, I know you to be a very bright guy, but you do have a talent for inciting flame wars (your screen name is very well chosen, btw.)

Here we are definitely violating Sheap's Rules of Diplomacy by talking about game crossover effects (and here's the link again, for reference)

We've covered this topic altogether too well already, so time to drop it. No more personal slurs, please!

Re: A message from Acro
 

BTW, I've been meaning to post for a couple of days now: we really cranked through those early turns - thanks everyone! It seems to me that war and chaos are breaking out all over the map - what more could a Dom3 host ask for? I guess the game is slowing down now, but that's only to be expected now that we're in the mid 20's for turns.

Good luck to all on your continuing quest for world domination (and most especially, good luck to T'ien Ch'i, of course!).

an end
 

The druids of Marverni, after witnessing their peaceful nation come under attack from strange and terrible beings, conducted a ritual of divination.

They saw some ancient battle raging, the combatants ankle-deep in bloody mud. The battle was not the focus of the vision however, for they also saw a host of ghostly warriors looking down upon the battle. Their black horses were silent, and there was death in their eyes.

One of the darkling warriors began to ride forward, raising his spear, and the druids could see that around his neck there was a noose. After that, they saw only darkness.

Come morning, the druids tore their robes and cast aside their wits. Marverni would soon be no more.

Re: an end
 

I saw the message indicating the God of Lanka was no more, but the Lanka icon still shows on the server as not having a turn submitted. Does Shovah32 still need to submit one more turn to close out the position?

And, of course, my commiseration Shovah32. Thanks for playing it out to the bloody end.

Re: an end
 

The (evil) God of Lanka will remain in play for one last turn and it will not Qh unless he submits. I do not think we have been quick hosting that last few days anyway though.

Re: an end
 

We had one stale this morning, I think otherwise the last player has been submitting a couple hours before the forced host time.

Re: an end
 

Deleted.

A great big party.
 

All over the land the people of Acrophale are celebrating. Months ago Nieflheim had started there invasion of Acro land. They seemed like a strong and unstopable force, that easily defeteated anything that came at them. but now ascro has struck back. A single vicotious battle against Niefle giants and shape shiftershifters left 25 of these giants dead. Included among the dead was found the prophet of Neiflehim. Almost all surviving giants that manged to retreat were on fire and had battle afflictions. And there was only 26 casualties on the Acro side.

Anyone that wants to join in Acro's party tonight is welcome.

Re: A great big party.
 

Me and Frank talked about trading dwarven hammers for skull mentors, at NO STAGE WAS A DEAL REACHED, Frank certainly never sent me any skull mentors. So I have broke no trade deal.

There is a BIG problem with what you say and its this, I play, have played in upto 12 MP games of Dom 3, in that time I have completed dozens of trade deals.

So on the one hand we have Frank indulging in is usual charcter assasination because he is a VERY, VERY BAD LOSER and about another 20+ Dom3 players who will confirm how fair my diplomatic dealings are in Dominions. Who do you believe?

This is not the first or even the second time Frank has launched personal attacks on players in MP games.

Re: A great big party.
 

Don't worry Meglobob. Frank is making himself look worse more then anyone else. It sounds like you were both fair and cunning at the same time to me.

Re: A great big party.
 

Haha, you gave me a rather bloody nose there Darrel... flaming arrows is pretty good. But the war is far from over =)

Re: A great big party.
 

As I feared we are just waiting on Shovah32, I'll PM him and see if we can get him in before QH time.

Re: A great big party.
 

I knew i still needed to get my turn in but ive had a rather bad migraine and no access to the computer. The turn has hosted now.

Re: an end
 

Ahhh, Frank, you give me a headache. This is precisely where I did not want to go. For anyone in this game that does not enjoy reading pedantic and litigious posts, I suggest skipping this one (I only wish I could skip writing it!).

My primary intent on referencing Sheap's Rules of Diplomacy was to keep the game thread and our in-forum conduct civil - obviously we're not achieving that effect at the moment. Before I get into the details of this circumstance I want to go into a bit of background on my ideas of what's reasonable in MP gaming. Frank, I don't want to insult your intelligence (and I say again, it is evident that you are a very bright guy), but I don't know your background in gaming.

My most basic reference for behaviour in MP gaming is the old Avalon Hill board game Diplomacy. Without going into great detail, in Diplomacy the art of the backstab is everything. There are absolutely no rules enforcing any agreements, and any player that plays with integrity will be at a serious handicap. For many, many gamers this game has provide an enormous amount of fun. However, a fundamental requirement to enjoyment of this game is that all players must be ready to believe that their fellow players are good people (no matter what backstabs occurred in game), after the game is over.

Now, imo, all MP games have to one degree or another some element of Diplomacy in them. In my personal play of Dominions 3 in this community, I don't go for the backstab in the same way that I would in a Diplomacy game, but I make that choice mainly because I don't see that same attitude or approach to the game that I would find in a group of experienced (and yes, mature) group of Diplomacy players.

Should I encounter players that do lie and backstab in-game, I consider that part of the game, and just roll with it. Most importantly, I do not take that experience outside the game (into the forums or into other games).

Now, having described my approach to MP gaming and Dominions 3, I'll move on to Frank's post:

OK, Frank I get your point, however I think you are blowing this way out of proportion. Yes, Sheap's 4th rule is one case where (unlike Diplomacy) there is a specific restriction on what kind of backstabbing one may or may not do. But personally, I simply do not regard this rule as being anywhere near as important as Sheap's other rules (the one's where he emphasizes the division between games and between in-game conduct vs forum/RL conduct). Even if Meglobob did all that you accuse him of, it is not worth the damage that you are doing to the game and to your relationship with other players in this community. If I were in your shoes, I would simply let it slide. I would likely advertise the backstab to other players, but I would be careful to do so only via in-game characters and only in an in-game fashion.

Nonetheless, let's assume for the moment that Meglobob did violate Sheap's Rules of Diplomacy #4 (and please note that Meglobob does not stipulate this point). How much heartache should this really cause? My problem as game host is that enforcing this rule is problematic as it would require seeing in-game messages and transactions, and that's messy and impractical. In fairness, you are not requesting that I enforce anything, instead you are advertising broadly that Meglobob is a "pact breaker". But this behaviour is violating what I regard as the most important rules out of Sheap's Diplomacy that being Tip 1 - rules 2&3:
Frank, your current signature is as direct a violation of these rules as I can imagine. I suggest you change that ASAP.

Meglobob, the text you included in all caps regarding banning Frank is likewise a direct violation these rules. It is an escalation and makes matters worse, please refrain from such posts in the future.

Now moving on to the specific question of whether Meglobob did or did not violate Sheaps Tip 2, Rule 4, as I read that rule, if either Meglobob or Frank shipped some amount of resource (gold, gems or items) to the other player, then that rule is in effect, and the other player is obligated to keep the trade. I can offer the two of you my assistance in resolving this question peacably, but if we are going to continue to debate the question, I strongly prefer to take the discussion out of this thread (ideally, I would like to do it an 3-way email, both of you can email or PM me your email address, if we need to get that discussion going).

OK, can we now cease and desist this conversation (in-thread, at least)?

- Hellboy

Re: A great big party.
 

Thanks!

Re: an end *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by Mindi

Re: an end
 

The way i see it is: Sheaps rules of diplomacy 1 and 2 are in effect. Frank broke these rules where-as meglobob did not as the trade had not actually begun.

Matter reported to the forum moderators.
 

I have reported Frank Trollman to the Dominions forum moderators, they can deal with it.

Re: an end
 

Please, anyone that still wants to say something about Sheap's Rules, pact breaking, etc., create a new thread for that discussion.

Re: an end
 

Dont even bother with a new thread if its going to take this tone.

The game AARs have some leeway, but the basic rules do still apply. If the conversation switches from subject, to personal, then the thread will be locked.

On second thought a new thread might not be a bad idea. That way the game thread can continue after the personal attacks thread is locked.

Gandalf Parker

Re: an end
 

Sorry, folks. Locking this one up. Feel free to start a new thread for the game when tempers have cooled.

Re: an end
 

I'm reopening this after a warning has been issued. Please remember to stick to our Board Rules which includes appropriate conduct when there are disagreements. The key thing is to remember to be respectful.

Updated: A member has been banned temporarily for ignoring my warnings and some posts have been deleted. I will try to preform some additional clean up on this thread tomorrow. Please do not continue this argument or the whole thread will be locked again.

Re: an end
 

Going to be travelling during the weekend...So will not be able to do my turns then.

Re: an end
 

ok, i'll make sure you don't stale. To the extent possible, anything you can do to ensure having in a turn just before leaving, and getting your turn done shortly after coming back will be appreciated.

Re: an end
 

The game hosted just 10 or so minutues ago, I will make sure to do this turn atleast so almost all people will have 2 new turns to look forward to.

Re: an end
 

Frank sent me about 150 gems from his site-rich peninsula as part of his ill-tempered storming off. Anyone want them? I'm too honourable to keep such unrequested bonanzas. Preferably a substitute for Ermor, if one can be found.

Re: an end
 

I recommend you either keep them (I don't think anyone mind),split them up between all nations, or destroy them. (transmuting them back and forth)

Re: an end
 

Ermor currently has about half a dozen provinces and 2 castles left and is at war with Atlantis if anyone wants to take over the position.

If no one can be found, I suggest Hellboy sets it to AI, it will at least cause me some trouble and delay the now rather easy conquest of Ermorian lands.

I have no problem with you keeping the fire gems sandman if you want.

I hope we can now all get back to playing a fun game. I am an old hack at strategy games so this bad behaviour does not bother me, I have seen worse, outright cheating. The most important thing is not to let it spoil our game and continue to have fun. Its Hellboy as the host and the effect on any new players that is the problem.

Re: an end
 

Not that I'm a glutton for punishment, but I could sub for Ermor just for grins.

Although it would probably be a step down from the AI challenge wise. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: an end
 

That would be fine with me, I will give you 1 turn of peace to rearrange your forces, then continue my attack. If your interested JayThomas theres another position, Marignon in the 10 player hosted middle era slow game that needs a sub. This position is in good shape and not at war. Just post in the thread, contact the host.

Re: an end
 

I'll set-up when I get home from work (6:00 PM EST) for the Ermor bloodletting. Do I need a password or anything?

Re: an end
 

That's good of you to offer Sandman, and I think probably I'll want you to do something with those gems. If we do find a sub for Ermor, then sending them to the sub would be absolutely the most appropriate thing to do. Also, Sandman, were you an ally of Ermor, or an enemy to those he was fighting?

First, however, I need to ask those who have visibility on the Ermor position: is there any point in getting a sub? At a mere 6 provinces, it sounds like a sub will have little enough chance to inflict more damage than the AI would anyhow.

Secondly, if anyone else got any windfalls out of this, please tell us now, or PM me.

Thanks,

Hellboy

Re: an end
 

That's good of you Jay, we'd appreciate it. I'll PM you later this evening (I'm also on PST).

Re: an end
 

Neutral. There was a clash between us over a province which I won, but I didn't follow up the victory. Like Ermor, I was at war with Lanka, but Agartha took care of them with little help from me.

Re: an end
 

OK, I just looked again at Frank's message, and it looks like the two recipients were Abysia and Agartha. So, if we can get both of you to send back to Ermor, along with everyone following Meglobob's policy of giving Ermor a one turn cease fire, I think that could work.

JayThomas, its certainly good of you to help us out here, it will certainly improve the game to have an active player in this not so very strong position.

Re: an end
 

I don't really see why you'd want to give the gems away. Certainly there is no need or obligation to do so? There is nothing wrong with a nation on the verge of defeat giving their gems to whoever they like.

The bad blood Frank has caused should make no difference with regards to the gems.

Re: an end
 

I agree with Teraswaearto. In every MP game I have been in, someone on the verge of defeat has given gems to allies or enemies of an enemy. Never once has anyone asked that the gems be distributed amongst players.

If a sub is found for Ermor, I think it would be nice for the benefiting nations to give the gems to the new player, but certainly not required.

Ultimately, I think this is up to Agartha and Abysia.

Re: an end
 

My notion was just that the Ermor position was being sabotaged . When it comes right down to it, I really don't have a strong opinion on the question, but since it looks like we have a sub for Ermor, he should have a voice on this.

Re: an end
 

Considering the gems were Ermor's to begin with, I wouldn't mind getting them back for my feeble attempt at greatness.

Unless you all are very afraid! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

(In any event, the one-turn cease fire is greatly appreciated.)

Re: an end
 

I have not seen the current turn, so i don't know what was sent to me, but since it was part of a temper tantrum I will send it back if JT is subbing or destroy it otherwise.

Wills can be ok in some circumstances (long alliances, dog-piles etc), but in general i think they are unfair to the many other players who have nothing to do with the local situation.

Re: an end
 

I really believe that he should roleplay his decision on whether keeping the gems or not. If the ruler is very honorable he could of course give them to new king of Ermor, appointed by bloodline or whatever.

Re: an end
 

Do I need the password? It prompts me for this.

Re: an end
 

I just sent you a PM, please respond to that.

Hosting tonight?
 

Hey it looks like most people have taken their turn tonight - any chance we can get everyone with their turn in tonight and get a double host in today? Maybe that'll put some pressure on Evilhomer to get another turn out for us before he leaves. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Players that have not yet got their turn #28 in:

Hellboy/T'ien Ch'i (That's me, oh no! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif)
Meglobob/Atlantis
imororg/Sauromati
Tyrant/Agartha
Darrel/Arcoscephale

Re: Hosting tonight?
 

I got my turn in.

I am reall surprised Frank mentioned me in that rant, and JohnArryn for that matter. Well whatever. (shrugs)

Re: Hosting tonight?
 

Ermor's turn is in. Wow, looks like Ermor got sliced and diced pretty good.

Re: Hosting tonight?
 

I did my very, very best. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Btw, I, Atlantis so far have taken no losses beyond a couple of soldiers in this war, so you can't fail to do better than the previous incumbent. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Hosting tonight? *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by Mindi

Re: Hosting tonight?
 

I've returned the gems (well, I kept a few as a handling charge). I don't think that Ermor is quite as near to defeat as Meglobob suggests, and I don't like to be the beneficiary of ill tempered disputes like this.

Re: Hosting tonight?
 

I thought Frank had told someone he wasn't playing anymore. If that is not the case, then giving away his nation is not something I'd agree with.