Seekers ability to hit a target.
 

Anybody ever research whether or not seekers ever miss their target? It appears to me through playing that they always hit there target if they can catch it. They don't seem to be affected by attack or defense modifiers. Even when launched from extreme range when it shows a 1% chance to hit, they always seem to be succesful as long as the target isn't moving away.

Any thoughts on this subject?

Re: Seekers ability to hit a target.
 

Seekers do not miss.

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The Grumbling Grognard

Re: Seekers ability to hit a target.
 

There is one case where I have seen seekers miss a stationary target. If I launch a seeker at maximum range against a planet, it will run out of range before it actually hits the planet. This is because the range at the time of launch is calculated to the edge of the planet, but the seeker has to move to the center of the planet to hit it.

Re: Seekers ability to hit a target.
 

I DON'T BELIEVE IT!!!!

Clinton's right -- seekers never miss! I just tested it.

THAT STINKS!!!

Has this been fixed and I just don't know about it?

Re: Seekers ability to hit a target.
 

What do you want fixed? The fact that the game shows a "to-hit" percentage for missiles, or the fact that they always hit (assuming you don't move out of range or destroy the seeker)? Personally, I kinda LIKE that they always hit (except, again, for the out-of-range/destroyed factor). Although it might also be nice to have a "wild weasel" device that would draw all missiles away from their intended target... But I have no idea how to implement in the game, especially since the original target is supposed to sit quietly until the "wild weasel" is destroyed, otherwise the seekers return to tracking that original target.

Re: Seekers ability to hit a target.
 

The only thing that bugs me about seekers is that they can't target fighters, when IRL missiles are the primary method of shooting down fighters.

However, I can live without it because the poor litle guys are already so helpless against PD cannons.

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Compete in the Space Empires IV World Championship at www.twingalaxies.com.

Re: Seekers ability to hit a target.
 

The capital ship missiles probably can't maneuver fast enough to catch a fighter. Add some 'anti-fighter missiles' to the game if you want. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

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--
"What do -you- want?" "I'd like to live -just- long enough
to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a
pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors
come with too high a price. I would look up into your lifeless
eyes and wave like this..." *waggle* "...can you and your
associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?"

Re: Seekers ability to hit a target.
 

Actually, when I first got the game I created a bunch of modified components which I later discarded b/c they were not 100% working correctly due to hard-coded algorithms within the tactical/stragetic combat module.

Patriot System Missile - designed to shoot down incoming Seekers. (basically a PD missile).

SA7 Missile System - designed to shoot fighters and ships (but damage was too low to really hurt a ship)

Re: Seekers ability to hit a target.
 

Considering the reload time, the fact that they are the heaviest weapon and are expensive to research I don't think that they don't miss is a big issue. Also they are easy to counter, for each missile launcher I can put in 2 PDC and have 10 tons left over, or just run away from them.

With advance targeting systems I can see a 100% hit chance.

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Seawolf on the prowl

Re: Seekers ability to hit a target.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nyx:
The only thing that bugs me about seekers is that they can't target fighters, when IRL missiles are the primary method of shooting down fighters.

However, I can live without it because the poor litle guys are already so helpless against PD cannons.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure, fighters are helpless against PD cannons. But have you ever seen the AI put PD cannons on anything smaller than a Cruiser?

This means that those little guys, in sufficient numbers, are an incredibly powerful weapon at the start of the game.

IMHO, someone looking for a challenge against the AI would do better to disavow use of fighters than to disavow the use of mines...

Re: Seekers ability to hit a target.
 

NOW I can't believe that you guys LIKE that seekers always hit -- regardless of target ship size, initial distance, ECM level, or environment (nebula or storm). As far as PD goes, it is not a guaranteed defense, it has to be researched, and is a waste unless the enemy happens to be using seekers or fighters. And even though missiles are heavy, they do tons of damage, much more than anything else at the beginning of a game with low starting tech.

HELLOOOO PEOPLE! The simple, complete solution to the so-called "missile dance" problem is to enable their to-hit probabilities. No wonder the AI has problems!

Re: Seekers ability to hit a target.
 

Ummmm, wouldn't that just make them really slow beam weapons? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

-Drake

[This message has been edited by Drake (edited 24 January 2001).]

Re: Seekers ability to hit a target.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What do you want fixed? The fact that the game shows a "to-hit" percentage for missiles, or the fact that they always hit <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not sure I wanted anything fixed. Pretty much I was just trying to confirm wheather or not what I thought I was seeing was correct.

I guess when you think about it a small, manuverable, missle should be able to pretty much able score a hit every time. We are pretty close to being there now with present day technology. In the future, in space with no wind to factor in, and considering the targets are much much larger than the missle, and much less manuverable, then it should hit every time if it doesn't run out of fuel before it makes contact.

Perhaps there will be an element of chance, say a missle is a dud or something like that. But most likely it would be so rare as to not be needed to be figured in for game purposes.

I think the real "problem" if there is one is that missles are available as a starting tech. This makes it much harder on the ai, unless they happen to have missles as well.

Didn't you have to research to get CSM's in SEIII? The early game then was much more touch and go simply because if you wanted to hit the Ai's escort with your APB/MB you had to get in range for him to hit you too.

I remember several times in SEIII that I would play a few hours on a game before I could say I had it under control. With SEIV that pretty much happens by turn 40 at the latest. By that point I am too far ahead of all the ai's for them to seriously challange me.

Re: Seekers ability to hit a target.
 

I think there should always be a chance for any weapon to miss, even just a tiny one. It make things a little more interesting.

Re: Seekers ability to hit a target.
 

Missles should perhaps have a chance to do half damage on a percentage basis instead of missing to simulate a near miss. That would even it up a bit.

Missles are nearly unbeatable in the early game against the AI, but are almost worthless against a human ship (but not so worthless against planets) in tactical combat, what a difference. The ability to run out of range would be a major liability of missles if the AI would just do that a bit more often.

Re: Seekers ability to hit a target.
 

I dislike missiles (seekers) having a 100% to hit chance (I also dislike the error in displaying to hit chances). This is my suggestion:

1) Add to the Settings file, a "Seeker Base To Hit Value" that is the chance to hit for all seeking weapons.

2) Seekers would not have their Base To Hit Value reduced by range (i.e., there is not Seeker To Hit Modifier Per Square Distance). Only Combat To Hit Offensive/Defensive Plus/Minus abilities would matter[1].

3) Modify the "Weapons Always Hit" ability to work differently when added to actual weapons. Only THAT weapon always hits. I believe this is how the "Combat To Hit..." set of abilities work: all weapons if not on a weapon, just that weapon when on a weapon.

4) The default \Data\Components.txt file should have all seekers having the ability "Weapons Always Hit", thereby duplicating the current seekers always hitting.

This would allow those of us who want it to work differently to change things. On top of that, we'd always be able to make auto-hit weapons (rather than kludge of +500 to hit).

[1] I'd actually lean toward only taking the "Combat To Hit..." abilities from the firing weapon and all "Combat To Hit..." abilities from the targeted ship. This would mean the firing ships Combat Sensors wouldn't help its seekers to hit, but if you put +40 to hit on the launcher, that would apply. Or, that could be an option in Settings.

Re: Seekers ability to hit a target.
 

How about chaff dispensers that can fire multiple times a turn and will cause missles to sometimes miss?!
They would be 10kt in size,and be a Last ditch defense against seekers.


[This message has been edited by Emperor Zodd (edited 25 January 2001).]

Re: Seekers ability to hit a target.
 

Base 100% to hit at all ranges is fine I think. However, ECM's should reduce this chance, just as Ship size should adjust it also. Small ships with ECM's would thus be very difficult to target with them.
If anyone were then to introduce anti-fighter missiles these could have a bast to hit of over 100%, to reflect their increased manouverability, but also do less than 30 damage so that high level warships can always ignore them (w. em.armour).

-Aegis

Re: Seekers ability to hit a target.
 

It is STUPID that seekers always hit. Homing torpedos don't always hit subs or ships. AA missiles don't always hit aircraft. Smart bombs don't always hit tanks. While it is true that part of the reason is that our seeker technology is crude, the other part is that countermeasures are easier to make than seekers. Flares, chaff, decoys, etc. are small enough, crude enough, and effective enough that ALL warships would have them.

What are these seekers using to seek!? They never miss, and they never divert from their initial target. Explosions and weapons fire all around? No problem. Countermeasures? No effect. Identical ship crosses path of missile? It can't be tricked. Target goes behind other ships or planet? You can't hide. Debris, asteroids, storm, or nebula? No effect. ECM? Don't bother.

Instead of CSM it should be SCM, for Santa Claus Missile, in honor of their omniscience.

Re: Seekers ability to hit a target.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Drake:
Ummmm, wouldn't that just make them really slow beam weapons? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What beam weapon has a range of 12 or more and does damage of 50 or more?

Re: Seekers ability to hit a target.
 

How I would improve seekers:
1) Better to-hit probability than direct fire, but not 100%.
2) To-hit probability would decrease as seeker moved, simulating effect of countermeasures.
3) They would move as soon as they were fired.
4) They would go after "opportunity targets" once they had traveled half their range, if the alternative were within their movement allotment and the primary target were not. Would also go after "opportunity targets" if the primary target were destroyed.
5) Would ramp up their speed faster than current research tree does.
6) Offensive bonuses, like sensors, would affect to-hit probability during the first movement. After that, the seeker would be on its own.
7) Defensive bonuses, like ECM and small size, would affect to-hit probability of seekers.

Maybe some of these improvements (like perhaps 3, 4, and 6 above) would come about due to research. Really, I'd love to see seekers be customizable, like troops and fighters, but that's just a dream for now.

Re: Seekers ability to hit a target.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What beam weapon has a range of 12 or more and does damage of 50 or more?[/b]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What beam weapon can be shot down with PD weapons?
They are large, slow firing, you can outrun them and now you won't them to miss?

Re: Seekers ability to hit a target.
 

Originally posted by Seawolf:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>With advance targeting systems I can see a 100% hit chance.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This reminded me of a question I had during a game (I really need to take notes when playing) if you have the Religious Talisman that allows for AutoHits when using Direct Fire Weapons, will it also work w/PDs? And if not does the Combat Sensors component affect PDs, ie. increase their % chance to hit?

Also, while my memory is working, anybody know how the Alliegence Subverter works? That is, what factors play into whether or not it is successfull, ie-target ship experience level? target fleet experience lvl? range? target defenses (shields, ecm, master computers, etc)?, attacking ship exp lvl? attacking fleet exp lvl?

I've looked at the data files and can't find anything helpfull in em?

As always, any help would be appreciated.

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[This message has been edited by WhiteHojo (edited 25 January 2001).]

Re: Seekers ability to hit a target.
 

There is a perfect defense against the always-hit seekers. It is called point defense. PDs never miss. I research them early and put them on all of my ships. I do not worry if I run into a race that has seekers I just do not want them to have many PDs.

PD's have more than one chance to hit if you back-up only a few squares. When I want to capture a planet that has weapons platforms (I normally do not worry about how many) with many seekers I just rub my hands. I work within 1 move distance for my troop ship letting my PD's handle the seekers. With this method I do not need to fire on the planet and damage facilities I will want to use.

For those who think PD's are not worth it you might try getting close to enemy satellites and see what a PD does to them. In my experience when you get close they seem to do more damage than other small beam weapon. They also are very good against fighters. That makes three good uses for PD's.

On another note seekers that picked "targets of opportunity" at there choice would be somewhat useless. I mean it works in Hollywood but most missiles today (including torpedoes) go after what they are locked on to. If their target is destroyed then they should be able to look for targets of opportunity. When I fire at a ship that is the ship I feel is a threat.

Re: Seekers ability to hit a target.
 

Daynarr wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>They [seekers] are large, slow firing, you can outrun them and now you won't them to miss?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Speak for yourself. The slowest seeker in my games is speed 8, the best speed 18. Outrun that. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Seekers ability to hit a target.
 

dmm wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>3) They would move as soon as they were fired.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I'd like this to be an ability placed on the launcher itself. Kinda a "catapult" ability. So, a high tech launcher might "throw" the missile out 6-8 spaces initially, then the missile travels on its own engines.

I'd also like MOO2's missile movement system: When the targeted ship moves, the missiles targeted on it move at the same time.

Re: Seekers ability to hit a target.
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dmm:

What are these seekers using to seek!? They never miss, and they never divert from their initial target. Explosions and weapons fire all around? No problem. Countermeasures? No effect. Identical ship crosses path of missile? It can't be tricked. Target goes behind other ships or planet? You can't hide. Debris, asteroids, storm, or nebula? No effect. ECM? Don't bother.

Instead of CSM it should be SCM, for Santa Claus Missile, in honor of their omniscience.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

dmm,

Maybe they not "seekers" in a true sense. Maybe they being guided by some means. Like the TOW anti tank missile which has a wire attached to the missile to give it guidence until it's target or maybe IT like the current AAMRAM missile that uses both a link to it's lauching aircraft as well as it's internal seeker to reach a target.

I think the AI scrip needs to be tweeked so that they put PDC on theirs ships when needed but otherwise the 100% is fine. Not realistic maybe but it works for the game.



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Seawolf on the prowl

Re: Seekers ability to hit a target.
 

If seekers are changed to use the ToHit percentage, they should also get a better chance to hit than most weapons. But I agree, ECMs and Ship Defense Racial Modifiers should come into play.

I myself prefer to research Point Defenses in PBEM games early because Missles are very potent at that stage. I recently won a battle in a PBEM game with two missle Frigates (two missles, one PD) against two UR cannon Frigates (3 UR cannon IIs) and decisively won. I ended up non needing the point defense, because he did not employ missles. However, if he would have used missles without Point Defense he would have lost as well. The simple fact is that missles are very powerful in the early game and point defense are critical unless you can get your enemy to agree to not use missles.

FYI: Those Point Defense are also useful against Satelites and Fighters, which missles cannot target.

If you have point defense and your enemy does not, he has to research point defenses as well to fight you!

Re: Seekers ability to hit a target.
 

Seawolf, I can't agree with you on the statement that tow missles are seekers. They (TOW's) are "guided" missles and not seekers IMO. A seeker implies intellience as in our "fire and forget" smart bombs.

When I was in the Army and had an opportunity to shoot one of those tows (boy was that fun!!!), I remember that I had to keep my eye on the target. If I did not, the TOW would miss. Of course, it dod not take long at all for the TOW to reach its target.

However with SE4, it can take 3-4 combat turns for a seeker to reach its target. That implies an intelligence since you can target other ships / objects on your very next turn after firing (the seekers).

I don't know what they're seeking but I would think that a ship with all that stuff (and propulsion power used in combat) would be pretty easy for a seeker to key in on something: infrared, em emmisions, SOMETHING!!

Re: Seekers ability to hit a target.
 

How about a component that cloaked your emmisions from seekers? It would give you a chance to be missed but only if you had that special type of ECM device. Maybe it should be added into the combat support tree. I don't think this is something that could be modded the way the game is now but maybe its an addition that would help with this controversy.

If this was added maybe different types of missles and ECM could be added. Engine seeking (but not engine destroying) missles. And perhaps missles that used temporal or psysic sensor technology to acquire targets with the appropriate ECM to block those types of seekers. Hmm this may be a better idea for drones though. That way you could build them with the appropriate type of target acquisition device.

[This message has been edited by Tomgs (edited 25 January 2001).]

Re: Seekers ability to hit a target.
 

Well, looks like the **** has hit the fan on seekers and 'to hit' probabilities. Now let's toss a little more on the fan. The same problem exists with MINES, too. They always hit. This is even more ridiculous than seekers always hitting and the counter measures are more expensive to acquire and use. Both of these 'features' need to be tweaked. Simply treating them like normal weapons would seem to be the simplest answer. Factor in the best combat sensors that the owner of the seekers has since we have to assume that missiles are being built and updated continually, and then use the target's ecm and other defensive values. The same goes for mines.