Defining pretenders
 

I think I'm finally getting the hang of pretender creation. Without going into excruciating detail, I claim there are two major divisions with five total subsets:

+COMBAT PRETENDERS+

Non-Mage: Needs lots of HP and a viable attack of some sort. Seriously needs help from items. Skip magic entirely (or almost entirely) and use extra points on dominion.

Mage: Needs enough HP to survive a few random blows. Magic should be tuned towards battlefield spells. With enough magic picks, makes an excellent leader of magical / undead.

+NON-COMBAT PRETENDERS+

Standard Mage: Research, item manufacture, summoning, etc. Can be made 'on the cheap' to afford good dominion picks.

Rainbow Mage: Site searcher extraordinare. Tons of options, but not a powerhouse caster. Most flexible of all pretenders.

Bless Effects Mage: All 4s and 9s.

----------------------------------------

Am I missing anything? Did I get any of these wrong?

~Aldin

Re: Defining pretenders
 

A throw-away combat pretender? Not that you have to have a pretender if you want to use the points somewhere else. I guess thats the first one you mentioned.

I came across combat pretenders from the back side. While pursuing a "how many blessings can I get" or "major scale bonuses" I would end up with a combat pretender that I put nothing in and really didnt care if he died.

That lack of concern actually made him far more useful to me then when I tried combat pretenders seriously. After he started surprisingly surviving I started giving him equipment and having alot of fun.

[ December 23, 2003, 16:24: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Defining pretenders
 

A combat pretender of the "Super Combatant" type will typically use magic to cast spells that augment his melee capability, like quickness, fire shield, iron skins, etc. A pretender with no magic seems like a bad idea.

The kind of "combat mage" you are probably thinking of would likely need to be immortal to be of much use.

A blessing pretender with 9 in something will almost certainly be a combat pretender, to some degree at least.

Re: Defining pretenders
 

The only time I'd use a pretender is at the very beginning of the game when I'd need that extra general on crack to do some damage or something, Moloch makes a nice one gets a few free imps every battle, plus he slices and dices though the competition.

But yah, as Tera said.. immortal is almost a must, and then you better bring a huge army to be damn sure you capture the province.

Re: Defining pretenders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Really? I tended to go with cheap pretenders, cheap castles, and insane scales. That got me piles of blessings for my holy units. Not really worth it in alot of cases but worked well with some. I was able to get all 4's and one or two 9's but never with a pretender that itself couild enter combat.

Re: Defining pretenders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The Lady of Fortune is an example which you are unlikely to use as a combat pretender but most bless effect gods are going to be combat pretenders and as losing them doesn't effect the bless effects why not?

You seem to have missed out bargain bin gods whose only real role is to not cost many points. Not so popular in Dom2 as Dom1 but still a good choice for a race relying on powerful dominion, good troops and native mages.

cheers

Keir

Re: Defining pretenders
 

Okay, thanks for the responses. Sounds like I've got the bless effects pretender in the wrong Category. That's not suprising as my biggest weakness right now is battlefield magic.

A throwaway pretender? As in worthless? What keeps that from fitting either the Standard Mage Non-Combat or Non-Mage Combat role? They also serve who only generate a few points of research, right?

~Aldin (trying to imagine a zero cost pretender with no combat abilities and no spheres of magic)

Re: Defining pretenders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The thing that defines a bargin bin god is why it is being bought - its being bought because its cheap. Its not there to win the war or even contribute majorly - thats the job of the army and mages and the god is really just there to applaud and offer encouragement. So it could be a Fountain of Blood, Oracle or some other cheapy which has some useful role but has been chosen because of its cheapness to free up points for dominion. Sure the same pretender can perfom a wider role but in the specific race its job is to not cost anything in order to free up points for dominion.

It may be the case that bargain bin gods, so commen in Dom1, have largely vanished as you have enough points to invest in a enhanced pretender with the vast majority of races and immobile pretender are not what they used to be.

Pythium and Arco would be examples of races who would still want to free up alot of points for dominion. Something like:

Pythium
Oracle, Astral4, Dominion7.
Order3, prod3, growth3, misfortune3, magic2.
Wizard Tower.

This is a very solid looking race which is designed to give you the most of your native troops and mages as possible as they are really very powerful and the mages have this growing affect (communion) whereby the more you invest in them the better the rate of return. The theory in this race is that you are focusing on what you really want to do - build HI and mass communions and expand fast. You don't need a combat pretender to expand fast.

cheers

Keir

Re: Defining pretenders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Really? I tended to go with cheap pretenders, cheap castles, and insane scales. That got me piles of blessings for my holy units. Not really worth it in alot of cases but worked well with some. I was able to get all 4's and one or two 9's but never with a pretender that itself couild enter combat. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I was thinking along the lines of a dragon, earth mother, etc. I tend to get just one path to 9, and maybe one to 4. Ultra strong blessings with everything else sucking seems little more than a curiosity, but I may very well be wrong about that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ December 24, 2003, 05:21: Message edited by: Teraswaerto ]

Re: Defining pretenders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ahhh I could see that. But to go with mega blessings only works well with races that have alot of decent blessable units. And larger/longer games since you pretty much have to be prepared to give up your home province. It can work with some nations though.

The thing is that as we move into multiple player games, even sucky strategies can earn major bonuses for NOT being what others are going to do or expect. Dont toss things based on "good" or "not good". Classify them with "pros and cons" and keep them in them in the box marked "time for a change of tactics"

-- Even if someone cant be a good player,
they can be a surprising one.

Re: Defining pretenders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And a surprise might be enough in itself to earn you a victory.
But, how are you going to surprise someone when you *need* to (that is, when the game is going adly), if you have "different tactics" -box full of different pretenders? It's not that easy to find a strategy that fits a pretender you created for different strategy... I admit, playing a game in which you create a surprising pretender can be fun, and you might even win. But playing a race that can win the normal way you have better chances of winning (I think).

Anyway, as I'm still waiting for my copy of Dom2, can anyone tell me is there any reason to play with Turmoil? As Maenad seem rather weak and I would like to use Pangaea's new strengths (seemingly Centaur warriors), and reading the Posts of this forum, it seems going for Order/Misfortune is much better. I hadn't realised it's 50% difference in gold if you go to Tumoil+3, and that definitely has an effect in play... I don't know what I'm supposed to do with that money.

Re: Defining pretenders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And a surprise might be enough in itself to earn you a victory.
But, how are you going to surprise someone when you *need* to (that is, when the game is going adly), if you have "different tactics" -box full of different pretenders? It's not that easy to find a strategy that fits a pretender you created for different strategy... I admit, playing a game in which you create a surprising pretender can be fun, and you might even win. But playing a race that can win the normal way you have better chances of winning (I think).

Anyway, as I'm still waiting for my copy of Dom2, can anyone tell me is there any reason to play with Turmoil? As Maenad seem rather weak and I would like to use Pangaea's new strengths (seemingly Centaur warriors), and reading the Posts of this forum, it seems going for Order/Misfortune is much better. I hadn't realised it's 50% difference in gold if you go to Tumoil+3, and that definitely has an effect in play... I don't know what I'm supposed to do with that money. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You can take the middle of the road and have Order 0, Luck +3. You have less income but you'll have some luck events; and better results for "cross-breeding".

120 points are a big deal but if you intend to use a cheap pretender (e.g. Wyrm, Dragons), it's affordable.

Re: Defining pretenders
 

Okay, let me try this one more time (with a MUCH better understanding than the first. Thanks again for all the informative responses!). Pretenders are designed to fill at least one of the following functions (in no particular order):

1) Bargain. The best way this pretender can help their nation is by being personally weak so that the nation can be strong.

2) Search. This pretender will have at least three spheres with at least two picks each. Because of the time intensive nature of searching, this pretender is unlikely to be much of an asset in creating items, researching or winning provinces in the early game, though they may very well excel at any of these later on.

3) Research / Craft / Summon*. This pretender stays at home and minds the shop. They have whichever magic picks are most conducive to generating greater research and/or producing items and/or performing summons*.

4) Blessings. Has picks of four and/or nine spheres in every college of magic they have. A Bless Effect pretender will also fit one of the other roles.

5) Combat. Needs to have reasonably high hit points. Can be a simple fighter, a magic caster or a combination of the two. Can generally benefit greatly from some item support. Some care needs to be taken not to risk them unduly.

6?) Stealth? No one's mentioned it, but I suppose you could make a stealthy, high dominion pretender in an attempt to covertly spread dominion and spy out weaknesses. Seems risky, but a nation like Machaka (which starts scoutless) could benefit.

~Aldin

* summon = any global casting