The most complex game?
 

Few games (especially non-strategy ones) come close to Dominions in complexity. Still, I think Alpha Centauri, ADOM and perhaps Moo3(whatever else is wrong with it) all have about the same level of complexity. What does everyone else rate as the most complex game?

Re: The most complex game?
 

Other than those mentioned: UFO X-COM Apocalypse http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif .Of course, i've played MANY wargames that take 1-2 hours a turn but those are/should be classified differently IMHO.

[ January 08, 2004, 19:42: Message edited by: Lord Hammer ]

Re: The most complex game?
 

I'd rate it as more complicated than SMAC, which had a very simple combat system and relatively limited resource management and fewer options (e.g. in Dominions, there's a balance to draw between taxes, conventional power, blood slave gathering, research, item forging, global enchantments, gems for combat magic, rituals). SMAC units were, relatively speaking, quite constrained in what they could spend their time doing, and unit interaction was minimal because of the 1-vs-1 non-tactical combat system.
Among games I've played, _Empires in Arms_ might be the only game of similar complexity. For a board wargame, it's quite complicated.

Re: The most complex game?
 

Daggerfall and Morrowind I think come close, but they are neverending RPGs and hardly to compare with strategi games. Moo3 and Space Empire IV are also a good to be on the top of complexity. Does anyone know the old Dos game called 'Sword Of Aragon'? That's a game I could play over and over again and have some similarities to Dominions 2. Not to menshion(sp?) Master Of Magic!

[ January 08, 2004, 20:25: Message edited by: Thilock_Dominus ]

Re: The most complex game?
 

I would mention Harpoon 3, but it's a simulation, not a game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

SMAC/X is simple compared to DOM, and Moo3 would only come close if the AI wasn't ment to do most things on it's own.
(Not that this is necessarily a bad thing, as it reduced micromanagement when playing on BIG maps. Sadly it doesn't work well, so you can't ever know what really happens in yor empire and why...)

A.

[ January 08, 2004, 20:16: Message edited by: Arralen ]

Re: The most complex game?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have to disagree, IMO Alpha Centaouri's economic side is far ahead of most games(with it's multitude of terraforming options).
SMAC to this day has the best (with most options) diplomacy that I've seen. You're probably right though, that SMAC's biggest shortcoming is its tactical system, which is why I play Dominions http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Re: The most complex game?
 

Complexity is going to mean something a bit different to everyone in all likelyhood. What is complex about Dom2? The economic model isn't complex, the equations for combat arn't complex, the magic system isn't complex. What you have in Dom2 are a phenominal number of choices and all those choices multiply on each other to give the illusion of complexity. I would argue that the underlying game elements are not complex at all, what makes the game appear complex are the number of choices available to the player. However, once you pick your nation and god and start actually playing there isn't as much complexity as people may think. There isn't even *that* much information that you need to keep track of from turn to turn. What there is are a large number of units (though you will only ever have access to a small subset of them, and within that subset there will be certain favored units and never build units) and spells (again within the set of available spells there will be obvious choices for use and then 4x as many never cast).

I guess my point is that quantiy /= complexity, other than in a fairly narrow deffinition of complexity.

A game like SMAC also has fairly simple elements so I'm not sure I'd call it complex either, a game like MoO3, though, has very complex mechanics defining economics, combat, and maybe diplomacy, MoO3 is complex, as is EU2 (from the small amount of time I put into it).

If you want to define complexity based on learning curves then things are different again, but I assume that we are looking at the games once a fundamental knowledge of the game mechanics is in place.

Re: The most complex game?
 

This game is pretty complex, I agree. But, it feels even more complex because the docs are not up to snuff.

olaf

Re: The most complex game?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yep, SMAC has much depth as far as terra-forming and diplomacy. You could actually make "friends' with the ai and they would help you in your struggle, a very deep game. Sadly, as i buy make/buy more uber-computers SMAC has been left behind. EU2 and HOI and company are by far TOO complex to get any enjoyment out of IMHO http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif . Dom2's complexity lies in the multitude of races/units/spells etc., then tackling the learning curve which once overcome you realize you've only just begun, you pick another setup and learn all over again http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .

Re: The most complex game?
 

Originally posted by Lord Hammer:
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Really? From the little I played of EU2 it seemed quite simple with only three unit types and few technologies that did much.

Re: The most complex game?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Really? From the little I played of EU2 it seemed quite simple with only three unit types and few technologies that did much. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ah, but the diplomacy in EUII (or more exactly the "do not piss off the AIs or they'll all gang up on me" syndrom) is very complex. And while there are only 3 army types, their effectivness in battle depends on a whole lot of factors, so the tactics stay very complex.

Re: The most complex game?
 

EU2 seems simple at first, but it keeps getting more and more complicated. The documentation is good, but not specific. As such, you have a lot of work to figure out how things like ethnicity and religion interact. It often makes political, economic and religious sense to reduce the size of your kingdom! Try finding another games where you have to give back conquests and where bigger is not better. It is almost like the Sims in that your goals are very unusual, it is more the playing that matters than the end goals, it is a strategy game, not at 4X game. It is a very, very complex game and as a player, you have fairly blunt tools to make changes. This is perfect, it is just like the Kings of the time faced. There are lots of reports available, but they only give you some information, you have to do a lot of thinking.

I agree with Lord Hammer, it is pretty heavy going sometimes. I have to be in the mood to work at a game to play EU2 and I have to know my history for things to make sense. Dominions also requires a lot of thought, but not the same high level and historical back ground. I can almost always play Dominions, EU2 is a once in a while when I have a Saturday free and feel like working.

Re: The most complex game?
 

Documentation for EU2 is rotten. The reason being primarily (but not exclusively) that it has been patched so heavily as to make a different (and much better) game.
I like Dominions II very much, but my all time favorite is still EU2 by far (with Victoria second).

Edit: I find EU2 and Dominions to be approximately equally complex, but in very different ways. HOI is possibly a bit more complex and Victoria quite a bit more (maybe a little too much).

[ January 09, 2004, 09:56: Message edited by: Bossemanden ]

Re: The most complex game?
 

For me the comlexity in dom is in large part the vast amount of approaches to playing - each with their own learning curve. For me there are always so many new things to learn. By combining enough well thought out elements the game produces possiblites which I imagine the creators never thought of but which emerge out of the logic they have created.

Complexity 10

cheers

Keir

Re: The most complex game?
 

Yes I love that I suspect these guys threw some things in that were "I dont know what the Users would use this for but what the heck its easy to add". As a hacker type I like that. Im still learning things and Ive been playing Dom1/Dom2 since Sept of 2001

Re: The most complex game?
 

Yes, I'm a bit of a Trek nerd, but Dominions complexity is of the IDIC type - Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations. There are just so many different ways to accomplish things. I love to browse the manual looking for a spell or item (or province defense, or bless effect, or scale) to spark a new idea of how to do something.

~Aldin

Re: The most complex game?
 

Keeping friends in SMAC was mostly a matter of bribing, just like in Civ II; the AIs in fact always knew what tech and money you had so that they could ask for particular techs or particular fractions of your money. Bizarre, silly, and stupid when the AI was in no position to make demands, or when it'd fare better continuing economic development than war. In both Civ II and SMAC, extermination frequently seemed the best way of dealing with the inane flood of demands and provocations...
SE IV was quite complex WRT ship design; it arguably rivals MOO2 in that regard. While it lacks, say, the assorted weirdness of the 'SPECIAL' components, there are enough components and they're balanced well enough that there's no "ultimate" ship design. You don't, say, have a situation where everybody builds high-powered beamers and the side which shoots first completely annihilates the enemy fleet in one salvo. Damage is more important because repair takes time and components get trashed, supply matters, beams don't always hit (for *most* ships, heh... Religious Talisman of Targeting, anyone?) and what ships could do varied more (like open warp points, drop mines, drop off troops /during/ combat, etc). Interesting. The same complexity and modability makes it hard for the AIs to deal with, however.

Re: The most complex game?
 

The complexity is a word that covers alot and is diffrent if you ask diffrent people. Lots of games have complexity of its own. Like Morrowind its complexity lies in it's neverending and the MW editor. Other games also have the 'unique' touch of complexity it's all about which eye who sees it. A child would say Mario Brothers are complex while an adult hard core roleplayer would think otherwise.

with best regards
Thilock_Dominus

Re: The most complex game?
 

True. Complexity is a very subjective and mutable term.

However, some other nicely complex games (of completely different genres - some might argue these are simulations rather than games, but they are also games), which are also some of my Favorites:

Point of Attack 2 (HPS Simulations)
Tigers on the Prowl series (HPS Simulations)
Combat Mission (see Battlefront.com)
Panzer Elite (Wings Simulations)
Falcon 4 (MicroProse)

Point of Attack 2 definites comes to mind when I think of the most complex game.

PvK

Re: The most complex game?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Decisive Action (HPS), now that's another one http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif ...aren't games supposed to be fun? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .

Re: The most complex game?
 

They are extremely fun, if you are a detail maniac, like I am. I think the most total fun I've had with computer games is with the Tigers on the Prowl series, which has merely functional MS-DOS graphics, sound that is best turned off, a steep learning curve and a large "find out what a PSW231/7 is yourself" element. It was so well done though, that it made me interested in finding out what a PSW231/7 was! I'm not alone either - there were many very satisfied fans of the series, and we had some great times playing the game via PBEM. Once you get into such a game that is well done, there can be a lot more to enjoy than in a simpler game, for players who are interested.

PvK

Re: The most complex game?
 

@PVK...
Don't get me wrong, i have every Talon Soft, HPS, SSI, SSG etc... game there is and spent most of my childhood playing Avalon Hill boardgames. I built every WW2 model i could get my hands on and have a vast understanding of the art of complex warfare http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif . But a "few" have too much minutia for me is all eg: Point of Attack 2 and Decisive Action.

Re: The most complex game?
 

Sure. Different players have different tastes. Details also don't necessarily make a good game. Some games also take some time to appreciate. I was totally confused and didn't enjoy my first game and a half of Tigers on the Prowl, but then I caught on, and got to the point where I could appreciate how well done the many different factors were, and that kept me very entertained for many years. It did also ruin my interest in less-detailed WW2 tactical games, though. When I try to play the Battleground series, or Steel Panthers, or when I look at the results of a strafing run in IL-2 Sturmovik, I can't help but groan and lose interest. Kind of like a Dominions fan thinking about playing Age of Wonders. Though, even that is an oversimplification - I know there are players who enjoy both, and/or who enjoy both TOP and SP, etc. Every player seems to have a unique set of tastes and sensitivities.

PvK

Re: The most complex game?
 

I have to say that Avalon Hill's boardgame "magic realm" has topped my most complex game list. it took me years to learn it and sadly, i am the only one that i have ever met that has played it. glad it had a solo varient.

[ January 10, 2004, 23:57: Message edited by: mercurycs ]

Re: The most complex game?
 

Too bad you're in the US, then.

We play it once every two months, according to the season spirits. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Love the second edition of Magic Realm...

Re: The most complex game?
 

Not only did I play it but I began to mod it. That was just as I was beginning to get into computers and was probably one of the main things on my mind as I considered the subject of programming and "if I did then what would I do?". It struck me as a game that just SCREAMED program me! A board game built around Random Map Generation. The game was great, it was only the setup and putting away that was a drawback. Its still high on my list of "want to be a game programmer? Play this" (amoung others)

Lately I fed google with "magic realm" and boardgame. I was intrigued at how many active sites came up for it.

[ January 11, 2004, 12:38: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]