The most complex game?

[quantum_mechani]

Few games (especially non-strategy ones) come close to Dominions in complexity. Still, I think Alpha Centauri, ADOM and perhaps Moo3(whatever else is wrong with it) all have about the same level of complexity. What does everyone else rate as the most complex game?

[Lord Hammer]

Other than those mentioned: UFO X-COM Apocalypse .Of course, i've played MANY wargames that take 1-2 hours a turn but those are/should be classified differently IMHO.

[ January 08, 2004, 19:42: Message edited by: Lord Hammer ]

[Taqwus]

I'd rate it as more complicated than SMAC, which had a very simple combat system and relatively limited resource management and fewer options (e.g. in Dominions, there's a balance to draw between taxes, conventional power, blood slave gathering, research, item forging, global enchantments, gems for combat magic, rituals). SMAC units were, relatively speaking, quite constrained in what they could spend their time doing, and unit interaction was minimal because of the 1-vs-1 non-tactical combat system.
Among games I've played, _Empires in Arms_ might be the only game of similar complexity. For a board wargame, it's quite complicated.

[Thilock_Dominus]

Daggerfall and Morrowind I think come close, but they are neverending RPGs and hardly to compare with strategi games. Moo3 and Space Empire IV are also a good to be on the top of complexity. Does anyone know the old Dos game called 'Sword Of Aragon'? That's a game I could play over and over again and have some similarities to Dominions 2. Not to menshion(sp?) Master Of Magic!

[ January 08, 2004, 20:25: Message edited by: Thilock_Dominus ]

[Arralen]

I would mention Harpoon 3, but it's a simulation, not a game.

SMAC/X is simple compared to DOM, and Moo3 would only come close if the AI wasn't ment to do most things on it's own.
(Not that this is necessarily a bad thing, as it reduced micromanagement when playing on BIG maps. Sadly it doesn't work well, so you can't ever know what really happens in yor empire and why...)

A.

[ January 08, 2004, 20:16: Message edited by: Arralen ]

[quantum_mechani]

Originally posted by Taqwus:
and relatively limited resource management and fewer options

I have to disagree, IMO Alpha Centaouri's economic side is far ahead of most games(with it's multitude of terraforming options).
SMAC to this day has the best (with most options) diplomacy that I've seen. You're probably right though, that SMAC's biggest shortcoming is its tactical system, which is why I play Dominions .

[licker]

Complexity is going to mean something a bit different to everyone in all likelyhood. What is complex about Dom2? The economic model isn't complex, the equations for combat arn't complex, the magic system isn't complex. What you have in Dom2 are a phenominal number of choices and all those choices multiply on each other to give the illusion of complexity. I would argue that the underlying game elements are not complex at all, what makes the game appear complex are the number of choices available to the player. However, once you pick your nation and god and start actually playing there isn't as much complexity as people may think. There isn't even *that* much information that you need to keep track of from turn to turn. What there is are a large number of units (though you will only ever have access to a small subset of them, and within that subset there will be certain favored units and never build units) and spells (again within the set of available spells there will be obvious choices for use and then 4x as many never cast).

I guess my point is that quantiy /= complexity, other than in a fairly narrow deffinition of complexity.

A game like SMAC also has fairly simple elements so I'm not sure I'd call it complex either, a game like MoO3, though, has very complex mechanics defining economics, combat, and maybe diplomacy, MoO3 is complex, as is EU2 (from the small amount of time I put into it).

If you want to define complexity based on learning curves then things are different again, but I assume that we are looking at the games once a fundamental knowledge of the game mechanics is in place.

[olaf73]

This game is pretty complex, I agree. But, it feels even more complex because the docs are not up to snuff.

olaf

[Lord Hammer]

Originally posted by quantum_mechani:
QUOTE]I have to disagree, IMO Alpha Centaouri's economic side is far ahead of most games(with it's multitude of terraforming options).
SMAC to this day has the best (with most options) diplomacy that I've seen. You're probably right though, that SMAC's biggest shortcoming is its tactical system, which is why I play Dominions . [/QB]

Yep, SMAC has much depth as far as terra-forming and diplomacy. You could actually make "friends' with the ai and they would help you in your struggle, a very deep game. Sadly, as i buy make/buy more uber-computers SMAC has been left behind. EU2 and HOI and company are by far TOO complex to get any enjoyment out of IMHO . Dom2's complexity lies in the multitude of races/units/spells etc., then tackling the learning curve which once overcome you realize you've only just begun, you pick another setup and learn all over again .

[quantum_mechani]

Originally posted by Lord Hammer:

EU2 and HOI and company are by far TOO complex to get any enjoyment out of IMHO

Really? From the little I played of EU2 it seemed quite simple with only three unit types and few technologies that did much.