Oh...my....GODS!!!
 

This patch has screwed up my primary game map by turning my gods into a bunch of sissies =(

Normally I have a game setup where Abyssia has an uber Fire dragon (fire/air/blood of 18), Ctis has an uber Green(Nature/earth/astral).....Ermor has an uber dracolich etc....Now when I try to start a new game it yells that all my nations have cheated and turns my super gods into super arch mages with no magic skills (yet the stats of dragons, yeesh). Anyone know if there is a switch to turn this off or any sort of workaround? I'm not using any mods in my current tests.


And yes I know this is an unusal way to play the game, but it's what I find fun so shove it =)

[ January 12, 2004, 23:48: Message edited by: Dekent ]

Re: Oh...my....GODS!!!
 

Argh, after some playing around it seems there is no good workaround, also custom scales are no longer valid.....yippie...

Re: Oh...my....GODS!!!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Are these changes that were made in a .map?
(I do that alot also)

Maybe its because they are now accessale by mod although I kindof hope that adding one didnt take out the other.

Re: Oh...my....GODS!!!
 

Yep, 90% of them were cut and copied from my old Dom1 maps hehe

Re: Oh...my....GODS!!!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This may be part of the improved cheat prevention.

Re: Oh...my....GODS!!!
 

I don't really see what's 'improved' about it however. And I have NEVER heard of cheating being a problem in multiplayer, considering it would basically require sending you map to everyone and having them overwrite theirs...which might just give it away you know? =)

Re: Oh...my....GODS!!!
 

With modding it is quite easy to create an uber god so this cheat detection is necessary to make sure the god has not been created using a custom super mod.

Re: Oh...my....GODS!!!
 

I'll cut and copy what I said in that other thread...

How about this...leave the message in, but remove the part where they get turned into archmages. That way multiplayer people know whats going on AND it doesn't affect single player =)

Then everyone is happy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Oh...my....GODS!!!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Would you like me to attempt to hex a solution for you? If you give me a place to drop the result, and a day or two, I can probably hex you a solution that will let you play your game.

Re: Oh...my....GODS!!!
 

That'd be great, I have both IM and a 'junk' email address that I use for file transfers.

Re: Oh...my....GODS!!!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I know that you created the game. It is your baby. But, this blanket definition of cheating seems wrong.

What is cheating in a single player game?

What is cheating in a game between concending adults?

I can see the need for checks in casual multiplayer. However, it seems to me that this check should be enabled or disabled on the game setup screen.

The state of this check should be announced every time the game is entered.

IMHO the check should be optional. It seriously disables the ability to handicap or enhance a player (AI OR human).

Course, it is only your opinion that counts. BUT, I think my opinion would probably be more popular with the (non-hardcore) customers.

Thanks for the great game.

Miles

Re: Oh...my....GODS!!!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">OK I can understand this. With the old map commands you could also create an uber god but I thnk it would only work as a cheat if you were the host. With the new mod ability you could create a transferable god file.

Re: Oh...my....GODS!!!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't use IM. Filthy IMs. If you want to PM me that email, though, I can post it somewhere and send you the site to pick it up at, or something. Not entirely sure how to send a binary file over an email, though. It tends to get mangled.

Re: Oh...my....GODS!!!
 

Some others seem to be expressing concerns over the same issue, wonder if any of the fanpages would be willing to host it?

Or if you can find a host server for it just post it here so anyone who would want it can get it

[ January 14, 2004, 00:00: Message edited by: Dekent ]

Re: Oh...my....GODS!!!
 

Okay, here you go:
http://pheak.kludgemush.com/~fishman/dom2mods.zip

Cheat Detect disabled. Note that for any prospective MP cheaters reading this, this will not enable you to cheat in multiplayer unless you host your own game: This only allows the hosting of mods, or cheating in single-player: Clients do not require this to play mods, only the host requires it.

[ January 14, 2004, 04:38: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Oh...my....GODS!!!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, now. When I unpack that, it looks like a Windows executable. I will have to add: "Linux game players are less likely to cheat in multiplayer games" to my list of reasons for switching to Linux.

This doesn't really fix the underlying problem. It seems to me that the REAL problem is that cheat detection has slight benefit for Multiplayer games. However, it harms Singleplayer games.

If this trend continues (favoring the interests of Multiplayer to the detriment of Singleplayer) it could cause serious damage to the future of the game.

I think this problem should be openly faced and dealt with. I believe that Dom2 is currently limited because ALL games are treated as multiplayer games. The most obvious place to start is to add options to the game setup screen that allow you to setup types of games that favor single or multiple play.

Game setup options that I think would help include:
</font>

• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Enable/Disable Cheat detection</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Number of simultaneous global spells</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Enable/Disable unbalancing spells</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Enable/Disable unbalancing Units</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Enable/Disable unbalancing Gods</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Enable/Disable unbalancing Nations</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Enable/Disable unbalancing sites</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Enable/Disable unbalancing events</font>

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">
Anywho, you get the idea. In many ways, a multiplayer game is boring in single play. Multiplayer games normally never allow any single event to really alter the progress of the game. All factions in Multiplayer games have to be roughly equal. You can't play a very strong side. You can't play a very weak side. The game can't be very unpredictable. Games usually drag on LONG after the result is apparent because the game doesn't allow a side to collect or deploy overwhelming power.

But, Dom2 really NEEDS a strong singleplayer game. Most of the consumers will never multiplay. Without strong singleplay, Dom2 will get bad 'word-of-mouth'. Most of the multiplayers will be recruited from singleplayers. Without compelling reasons to singleplay, the numbers of multiplayers will be severely limited.

I have been playing Dom2 since it came out. Before that, I played Dom1 for months. I still play MOM. I still find Dom2's singleplayer game very enjoyable. But, I think it could use some improvement. I suppose that I could try multiplayer. But, my schedule never seems to be that predictable.

Sorry for the long post.

Thanks for the great game.

Miles

[ January 14, 2004, 18:50: Message edited by: Miles ]

Re: Oh...my....GODS!!!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Im 95% single player. And would love to see the devs decide to do something along the line of some of these suggestions. But I cant doomsay it as something that must be fixed or it will seriously hurt the game. The game is an MP PBEM game. At least they dont treat solo play as barely a tutorial walkthru and nothing else.

Re: Oh...my....GODS!!!
 

I also belive they should focus on single player aspects above multiplayer. Anyone shocked? hehe...

I don't have any hard numbers, but as with other games I'm sure most people play single player for the most part. Even if the devs intend for it to be a multigame I wish they would consider changes to the single player first and foremost. Having a way for the game to distinguish between solo and mutligames would go a long way (which would allow that damn host button to go away ;p)

Re: Oh...my....GODS!!!
 

Considering when you balance for MP you balance for SP as well but the opposite is not true.

I can't quite see the big stir from people crying "Oh it's never about SP, it's all MP" when your problem (Making out of control pretenders) was fixed within 2 days after the patch release by a 3rd Party while retaining the MP balance of not having cheaters.

It's MP, Modability, Balance, Customer Support, etc, etc that keep people playing the game and more importantly buying the game.

I'd love to see some AI updates, Diplomacy and other SP features in the game, but I don't think you'd have the game you have now (so deep and diverse) if they thought about SP first. They'd be thinking about making 'campaigns' and other things that would, over time, kill the MP aspect.

Re: Oh...my....GODS!!!
 

None of us, illwinter and associates, play single player strategy games to any significant extent. Dominions 2 is the way it is to a very large extent due to that it is a game that is enjoyable for its makers to test while it is being made. I think you are better of making a game you enjoy yourself rather then trying to create a game for someone else. Dom 2 is essentially a labour of love, and illwinter happens to love multi player games more than single player games. I am not saying that the SP aspect should or will be ignored, just that there is a dom 2 at all because JK and Kristoffer enjoyed making it, and they would not have enjoyed making a single player game, so it is very unlikely that SP gameplay will ever take precedence over MP gameplay, even if it would be more market savvy to go in that direction. Furthermore, as zen pointed out, most of the additions that work for MP work for SP as well. I hope no one will be offended by this, as some people previously were, for both the strengths and flaws of dominions is derived of this approach. Illwinter does not and can not operate as a major design studio does, whether dom 2 fans would like it to or not.

[ January 15, 2004, 00:55: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

Re: Oh...my....GODS!!!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Please don't think that I dislike the game. I love it. However, you have to realize the it doesn't really have singleplayer. It is ALWAYS multiplayer. Sometimes you play with humans. Sometimes you play with AI's. It works REALLY well, when the AI's pass the Turing test and are indistinguishable from humans. But, when the AI's fail the test, playing without humans can suck.

It would really help to provide better singleplayer crutches so we don't lose huge numbers of customers.

Modding has done wonders already for me. I am having a ball creating a custom Nation. I love the 'poke-in-the-eye' maps. They introduce variety and newness to gameplay.

However, both seem to be a response to fundamental problems in single-user play.

I guess I am just greedy. Still, I am sure that I am not alone. I am sure that the majority of the purchasers of Dom2 will never do multiplay OR post to this forum.

Miles

Re: Oh...my....GODS!!!
 

MoM is single player only (without a very funky workaround) and it is still widely played by TBS fans. Multiplay is NOT where its at, the vast majority of people are single player fans and will always be single player fans, especially in this genre.

Another example would be Warcraft 3, sure it has great multiplayer, even better then Dom 2,but most people buy it JUST for its single player and never touch battlenet.

Single player CAN sell games and keep selling em if it is done right. Much more so then multiplay. I'd wager that if this game had a stronger focus on single and good campaign(not that I have ANY idea how this would be done) we would be seeing it on games shelves rather then having to order from sharpnel.

Re: Oh...my....GODS!!!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well the game is built on a set of parameters. (Like Research, spells at certain levels, certain costs, certain effects). Building Pretenders is built or 'balanced' on a set of parameters (by way of the points you are given at the beginning) for both humans and AI (though most of the AI are given more points based on difficulty).

So if the game is built on a set of parameters and you change them then you are not addressing the balance at all but your own whims. Which is fine for SP and you can do it (Hey, I'm sorry about Linux, maybe you should ask the same guy who made the windows Version to see if he can tweak up a Linux).

Just because the Dev's don't support it outside of a modding aspect doesn't mean they are 'ignoring SP'. It just means that they envision people playing the game as they intended it (because they made it). It's like saying "Why can't this RTS be a FPS straight out of the box?" While some of it is limited by the engine, other parts are not.

As for MP balance being SP, yes, it is true. MP is much more exploitive than SP ever will be, since humans are base by nature and will use everything they can inside the rules to win for the most part. In SP there is not that drive, and if you are getting beaten you more often look for an exploit against the AI as opposed to abusing the options. This is a generalization but I feel safe in saying it.

Maybe it doesn't 'add' to your fun, but I don't think they are balacing the game for SP fun, they are balancing the game so that you can use just one set of tactics/units/abilities/spells/nation to consistantly win thus making it boring for both SP and MP.

Re: Oh...my....GODS!!!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I should never have used the word 'suck' in this context. It is imprecise and unproductive (IE a lie.)

What I should have said is:

The beginning of a new single-player Dom2 game is always new and fresh. The possibilities are almost infinite. Minor changes make major differences in gameplay. Each game is a new adventure.

In mid-game, singleplay can become predictable. However, this predictability can be avoided via new maps and mods.

At end-game, singleplay always becomes tedious. You know where you are going. You know how to get there. However, the actual doing is work. The only way to avoid extended tedium, is to NEVER play large maps in singleplay. Anything over 80 provinces is probably a bad idea.

Overall, the whole experience is positive. I greatly enjoy playing Dom2 single-player.

Hmm. Sounds like I am engaged in a series of love affairs... No wonder my wife looks at me strange when I start playing.

Anywho, I should hever have used the word 'suck' in this context. Not, when I can still remember the hell that is MOO3.

Miles

[ January 15, 2004, 22:55: Message edited by: Miles ]

Re: Oh...my....GODS!!!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think that 'balance' is another concept that is unproductive in this discussion.

You see, it looks to me like balance is a multiplay ONLY concept. Within a multiplay game, balance can be defined with almost mathematical precision. It can be refined by successive trials. After each trial, everybody can tell if there is more balance or less. Thru successive approximation, balance can be maximized until some change in game design starts the cycle up again.

However, it seems to me that balance is meaningless in singleplay. Or to put it another way: It ain't balanced if it ain't fun.

You see, it seems to me that much of the enjoyment of the game in multiplay comes thru the human interaction. In this sense, maybe we can say that Dom2 allows strategic gamers to speak eloquently to each other.

In singleplay, enjoyment comes thru other factors. Exploration, surmountable unpredictability, and the sense of accomplishment are essential components in singleplay success. Balance means very little, unless it adds to the other three factors.

The fact that I enjoy Dom2 singleplayer so much, is a complete mystery to me. I should probably stop thinking about it before I do myself an injury.

Miles

[ January 15, 2004, 22:58: Message edited by: Miles ]

Re: Oh...my....GODS!!!
 

Ever play a game where all you need to use is one strategy to win? Say "Put all your research into this area, get this spell/technology, win"?

Those games are far too common. And yes, you can play them even if that flaw exists, and many do, but if you ever really get in a bind you can fall back on that. That's where balance comes into play.

It may not be *for* SP, but it in no way hurts it, other than you using exploitive strategies vs the computer instead of people and your 'fun' by winning easy is gone. Whereas MP (the OTHER half of the people playing the game) is dramatically hurt by it.

I'm all for SP and I'm all for helping out the SP games, but Mod Tools exist for you to make whatever kind of game you want and play them SP until you drool. In the near future they will add to them the ability to make spells, items, and whatever else they intend. So you can make the game how you want it to and unbalance the game as much as you need to enjoy it.