Units seldom used.
 

Just curious if you fellers know a trick or two about some units I never find any use for. Since there's no such thing as a redundant option I was hoping you might save them from a "moddy" end. If you can not then perhaps you can make a suggestion on how to improve the units? Feel free to add your own comments about units you don't use.

Abyssia - Humanbreds and Salamanders. The former is simply a lite Version of the basic troops and the latter is way expensive for it's punch. They're sole saving grace is a two point move but what's the point of being speedy if you can't actually beat anything you catch up with?

Arcosephale - Slingers and Light Cavalery. Slingers are waste of gold, which explains why they make out your PD. Even with spellsupport shortbow archers beat the snot out of them. Light Cavalery is expensive, fragile and inaccurate. Even if they get around the infantery they can not take down the commanders.

Atlantis - Spearmen. Sure they are cheap but I rather buy 5 reefwarriors over 10 spearmen. The former might Last the battle atleast.

Caelum Return of the Raptors - Raptor and Ravenguard have so far failed to prove why I should ever buy these units instead of the basic troops. Even when modding I could not come up with a balanced idea to "save" them.

C'Tis - Militia, Falchioneers, Slave and Elite Warriors. Militia suffers from the ordinary quantity does not beat quality problem. Falchioneers die far too fast and kill far too little, much like the Slave and Elite Warriors. The other C'Tis troops are remarkably more useful than these.

Ermor - Preatorian Guard. I get a highfatigue unit with an automatic affliction. The fact that it's got high morale (if it doesn't start with Battlefright) doesn't do much for this oldtimer.

Jotunheim - Jotun Huskarls and Hurlers. 1 point better morale verus 3 points lower protection. If I'm short on gold and resources I'll go for javelintossers (who got the range of a bow). Hurlers do a lot of damage yes? But the range is so short they are usually enter melee before throwing boulders and if they do those highdamage stones knocks down your own troops at an alarming rate. Again I go for Javelineers. Or the coolest unit ever created, the Mooseriders.

Machaka - Milita and Spider Riders. Spider Riders are not worth the price of 5 regular archers nor do they have anything like the staying power of a Spider Knight. When do you build these?

Man - Militia and Slingers.

Marignon - You get three units with increasingly longer weapons. I can see the use of only one of them. What am I missing here?

Pangea - When do you build Revelers? I never found their use.

Summons - Soulless, when you can get longdeads that actually hit something? Corpse Construct, you get a really expensive Soulless for those precious airgems. Iron Pigs, well they're cute and all but a size three trampler isn't really worth the magic.

Re: Units seldom used.
 

Praetorian Guard (Broken Empire): Only tested for ten turns, but afflictions were generated on only 25% of those recruited. They were worth the cost, especially with strategic move two and their high protection / defense. Someone else may have more accurate data on actual affliction rate over a longer period.

Aikamun

Re: Units seldom used.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Don't their spiders stay and fight after they're killed? I know they're not as beefy as the Hunter Spiders, but it's better than a poke in the eye...at least it has been in my very limited experience.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They're the only Satyr that has anywhere near decent morale. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif I might throw a few into a squad of javelin-throwing regular Satyrs just to keep them from running away when something goes "Boo."

Re: Units seldom used.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You must not have played much C'Tis if you don't think that the Elite Warriors are useful. They are quick to build, have excellent morale and attack, are fast, and have two high damage attacks. They are one of the few units that C'Tis has that can punch through heavy armour.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They do not all have afflictions, and most afflictions are not that bad when you only have one of them. They also have a broadsword and high protection, while the Triarius only have a spear.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hurlers do a base of 30 damage, so they can easily kill even Ulmish Guardians, but they are at their most useful against knights and other high-defense troops.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Check the damage, attack, and defense Ratings on the units. Those -1 and +1 values on attack and defense make a great deal of difference.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Soulless have 15 hitpoints, so they can often survive a single hit and cause the attacking unit to fatigue themselves. Soulless warriors have more durability due to their armour.

Re: Units seldom used.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Slingers are useless. I usually mod in some archers for Arcos http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Units seldom used.
 

Jotuns are expensive, both in gold/resources, and in supply. You get by far more bang for the buck with spearmen (or spear-armed huskarls if you're tight on resources) than hurlers. You can only afford to have so many Jotuns so you need to make each one count as much as possible. Hurlers behind the front lines aren't nearly as effective as spearmen *on* the line. Hurlers cost the same amount of gold as spearmen (while only half the resources) but their 10 protection (vs. 18 for the spearmen) and pathetic 5 defense means that you'll waste all that gold very quickly if the hurlers ever get in melee. They are simply a bad investment.

Re: Units seldom used.
 

Slingers are good patrolers.
Not a very redeeming use, I know... but at least they serve some purpose.

Re: Units seldom used.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Humanbreds still have a good use: fire-resistant strat move 2 bodyguards for your mages.

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Caelum Return of the Raptors - Raptor and Ravenguard have so far failed to prove why I should ever buy these units instead of the basic troops.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The Raven Guards are expensive but have more punch than any other Caelum flier and aren't cold dependant. I find them useful.

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C'Tis - Militia, Falchioneers, Slave and Elite Warriors.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Berserked falchioneers are rather good and deal serious damage. Elite Warriors are excellent with Mass Protection. Both have dual attacks and are the C'tissian regular troops I use the most.

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Jotunheim - Jotun Huskarls and Hurlers.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I find Hurlers very adequate to crush knights with their boulders. You just have to very careful when deploying them.

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Marignon - You get three units with increasingly longer weapons. I can see the use of only one of them. What am I missing here?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Flexibility and countermeasures. Greatswords vs heavily protected swordsmen (best of the 3 to deal with Einheres). Pikes vs low-prot spearmen (eg, Reef Warriors). Halberds if you need punch vs tough enemy with range 3-4 weapons (eg, Ulm's battleaxe infantry). And halberdiers are good at defending castles.

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Summons - Soulless, when you can get longdeads that actually hit something?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">More often than not you aren't given the choice. Eg, reanimation after battles or popkilling events raise Soulless only. And Soulless have 15+ hitpoints and Last longer than basic longdeads in a meatshield role. So if your ability to deal damage comes from another source than your lowly undead troops, Soulless may be better.

Re: Units seldom used.
 

All nations : unprotected/badly protected light Inf (Cardaces, Satyrs, ...). Except as arrow catchers :eek ...
All nations : Lt Cav. Too expensive for its -limited- usefulness (even for patrolling)
Arco : "Heavy" Cav, not that heavy, no lance and expensive...
Pythium : Velites. Get something better, it's only marginally more expensive. Hastati : why get them when you can have Principes for 3 gold more ?

Re: Units seldom used.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They're a good investment if you use them only for what they're good at. Spearmen have serious problems dealing with high defense high damage units, like knights. OTOH a single boulder can crush a knight flat.

Re: Units seldom used.
 

I think it's a testimony to the raw niftiness of Dominions II that anytime somebody thinks something is useless, somebody else disagrees with their own reasons for what they use them for.

Re: Units seldom used.
 

Seems I finally managed to create a somewhat interesting topic. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Thanks for all the comments so far.

Good to hear that C'Tis Falchioneer and Elite Warrior got their uses. If a bit more specialised one then I hoped for. C'Tis is my favorite nation after Atlantis. Trouble is that I get a lot more power for my gold by simply going for heavy infantery and a morale boosting priest than using these two units. Can you give me some tips for proper deployment since the problem I have is that they die far faster then I can accept. Elite warriors can be kept on hold and attack rearmost to make a flanking manouver I guess.

I must have really bad luck with Jotun Hurlers. I would never imagine these guys Lasting one combat turn against heavy cavalery. They either get swarmed, since they walk so close to melee range, or they toss their boulders into the backs of their fellow giants (nothing new but these missiles are way too dangerous to allow friendly fire).

Thanks for the revelation that Preatorian Guards don't always come with an affliction. I must have been unlucky the first few times I checked them and assumed they always came crippled.

I'm sorry Fahdiz but I don't agree. Spider Riders are too lightly armored to Last very long. They are essentially basic Machaka archers with the bonus of turning into Giant Spiders when they die (though archer deployment means they will rarely reach their foes before the battle is decided). In theory good but since I can not replace the archer I get a Giant Spider, whose a melee fighter. It's not that the unit doesn't have its use. It's the fact that the Spider Knight unit renders it obsolete in my eyes.

I'm glad you found Revelers useful. Trouble is that when I group them with Satyrs myself what happens is that the nonrevelers rout leaving the berserkers alone to be slaughtered. But then again that means the enemy is distracted long enough for the other satyrs to make good their escape.

Re: Units seldom used.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Salamanders are useless with their current price / stats, IMO. More HP and NP or a lower price would be nice. Humanbreds are decent... a bit pricey, but good arrow bait (tower shields) / flankers (faster than Abysians) for Abysia, and good commander guards (2 strat move). I don't build many of them, but I always build some.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Slingers are vastly overpriced, but decent for patrolling and fodder for mind bLast / hellbind heart / extra targets versus "fire archers" orders. But archers are better in all those roles. Slingers should be 5 gold.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Unshielded spearmen are useless, IMO. Shielded ones are nice... reef warriors do not have shields. I only buy Coral Guard or shielded spearmen, never Reef Warriors.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Make them -2 gold, and other units +1 gold.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I find the elite warriors very powerful. As for falchioneers... I suggest you use my "PrePatch" bugfix mod; their ambidextrity is insufficient otherwise. The bugfix mod only gives them +1 attack, though - +2 would be (arguably) acceptable.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Huskarls are indefensibly worthless. They cost more and are worse than the 'non-handpicked' Jotuns. 33 gold, +1 attack, +1 HP, and a jotun sword instead of an axe would make them useful.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They are too expensive, but nice skirmish units... set them on "fire closest" and they can web a big group of melee units. Keep your own units out of the way.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Fine, just not cost effective, and need to be rebalanced (-2 gold).
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which one? Swordsmen and pikemen are both quite good...
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Pan's only buyable footsoldiers that don't run away when wounded=)
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Soulless are good fodder, as you get more of them than longdead. Against vastly more powerful elite units, both longdead and soulless are powerless... and thus, soulless (higher hp AND you generally get more of them) use up more enemy fatigue.

Corpse constructs are useless, IMO, though I've never used one (except in the combat sim). Regeneration and/or triple HP would be interesting, but right now, they're similar to Soulless Giants, except not free.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't know... backed by fanatacism or berserk, they could destroy most human-sized armies. Remember, they have ironskin in addition to trample, so are mainly vulnerable to morale loss. But that's theoretical; I haven't used them.

Re: Units seldom used.
 

I've found some success with Iron Pigs when casting berserk on them. Trampling units are really useful when your forces are all bunched together against your enemies bunched together forces - they spread everything out so that more of your guys can get in there and attack.

Re: Units seldom used.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have experienced affliction rates of between 1 out of 5 and 1 out of 4. That's not that bad IMO. What I use them for? For their intended purpose: as bodyguards of the pretender and other important mages/priests.

Re: Units seldom used.
 

Berserking Iron Pigs eh? Wonder why I never thought about mixing in a nature mage? I never summoned them with anyone except Ulm which created the effect that a lot of squeeling iron anger got routed right back into my own forces.

Your modding ideas are welcome Saber Cherry. Too tell you the truth I already altered all the units I've complained about here but it's good to see alternate ideas so I can minimize the "cheating". I prefer to run my games unaltered of course. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

By the way, what are your thoughts about the Villian unit? Stealthy is good I know but I never use them if I don't happen to build a fortress on that site.

[ March 10, 2004, 20:58: Message edited by: Wauthan ]

Re: Units seldom used.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, you raise a good point. Especially since Machaka's archers are so darn cheap and can be easily massed under Sorcs, Black Sorcs, and Hoplite Commanders. Although I have found that if some light cavalry happens to make it past your main force and beeline for your archers, the Spider Riders do Last longer and prevent the insta-rout, thanks to their mounts.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heh. Pretty much the only thing I've ever been able to use any Satyrs for is "distraction"...that, and catching arrows with their eye sockets. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Hey...at least they're cheap. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

While we're on the subject of Pangaea, do you (or anyone else) feel like Minotaurs ought to get a slightly better attack skill? I know that they can trample, but if they come up against anything larger than an ant they start looking like the "strikeout kings".

Re: Units seldom used.
 

I agree about the minotaurs Fahdiz. I can't understand why they got the same scores as militia. Removing their trampling ability and raising their attack and defence was the first mod I did in this game. Gave them gore as well to reflect all those evenings in D&D when my characters found himself dangling from a minotaur horn. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif I like them a lot better this way but then again I know others are big fans of trampling units.

Re: Units seldom used.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I like the trample (and I REALLY like your Gore idea), although I don't necessarily feel like standard Minos need more defense (that's what War Minos are for, after all http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )...I just think they should cost more gold and be able to actually hit the broad side of a barn.

Re: Units seldom used.
 

Great thread. Sorry I didnt get in on it sooner since one of my favorite things to do is to explore "useless" elements of the game. There are 2 areas which continually please me about this game.

One is the fact that any "this is a game-killer tactic" gets explored (usually by the formula and testing-types). It usually gets downgraded to "useful in certain situations or playing styles" or in some rare cases gets nerfed by the Dev team.

The other is that any "why would anyone use this" gets explored (usually the crazy short-attention-span hacker types). It usually gets upgraded to "useful in certain situations or playing styles" or in some rare cases gets boosted by the Dev team.

[ March 10, 2004, 21:18: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Units seldom used.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Villains are just like Woodsmen but worse in every way, and even need Blood searching just to recruit them. -1 gold, +1 att/def/mrl and they would be useful, though still not as good as woodsmen.

Re: Units seldom used.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I gave them -1 att/def/mrl and gave them prec 12 and composite bows myself. I don't remember the exact description I wrote for them but in essence these guys are the kind of cowards that would never stand up to another man in a straight fight, but gladly shoot him in the heart thirty paces away. Especially if they could shot him in the back first. They became the most easily routed sharpshooters in the game this way. Great if well protected but if they actually get hurt they'll run for cover.

[ March 10, 2004, 21:46: Message edited by: Wauthan ]

Re: Units seldom used.
 

C'tis Militia: Extremely good fodder, comes in great amounts

Falchioneers: Extremely good fodder killers, good against Ermor.

Slave Warriors just suck, don't use them. Elite Warriors cost 1 more gold and a few more resources for +6 more armor.

What I don't know is why you would use Serpents and Snake Dancer things. Serpents are replaced by fantacism-casting priests and snake dancers die too easily. No bless effect would make them worth it even if they are resistant to poison. Slingers + Dancers don't do crap. The dancers die and then the slingers are open for attack.

Re: Units seldom used.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I see your reasoning, but I don't think that a villain (or bandit) has (on average) a better precision than a trained archer. Somebody that determined to learn a skill like archery (and we're no talking about our modern wuss compound bows http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )has other options in life. Your theme works in AD&D, but not in a "military" game.

But then again, that's the good thing about easy modding, I guess, to be able to change what one does not agree with.
Anyway, very useful and entertaining thread.

[ March 10, 2004, 22:00: Message edited by: Tricon ]

Re: Units seldom used.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, you don't necessarily have level 4 priests following every single one of your armies, but you can easily and very cheaply put Serpents in every squad. With C'tis' pitiful morale, every little bit helps. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

And for Snake Dancers, I dunno...I'd think with a high water blessing they'd be pretty nice. Darn cheap, too.

Re: Units seldom used.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why "specialized"? Neither of them can withstand damage as well as Swamp Guards, so both need fodder (read: undead) to be effective, but other than that their role isn't any different: engage the enemy and kill him faster than he kills you.

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C'Tis is my favorite nation after Atlantis. Trouble is that I get a lot more power for my gold by simply going for heavy infantery and a morale boosting priest than using these two units.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">These two units (especially EWs) can be raised in numbers, the SGs can't. And they move 2 provinces on the map. If SG weren't so clumsy I sure would use them more often, but one of the reasons why they're better survivors is I can't get them to the front fast enough http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif . Besides you need Prod+3 if you want SGs in decent numbers, while relying on less resource intensive troops allows you to spend your design points elsewhere - eg, on magic: air 3 is good to have if you plan to rely on EWs or falchioneers.

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Can you give me some tips for proper deployment since the problem I have is that they die far faster then I can accept.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Undead fodder to distract the enemy (soulless, dispossessed spirits - or even basic longdeads). Behemoths to fight side by side with your EWs. Berserk and Protection spells will help too. I rarely recruit anything but EWs after Alteration 6.

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I must have really bad luck with Jotun Hurlers. I would never imagine these guys Lasting one combat turn against heavy cavalery.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They won't, if you use them without spearmen. When I have to deal with HC or knights, I use about 1 hurler for each 3-5 Jotun spearmen. You have to take the higher AP of the hurlers into account when deploying them. With a bit of practice, you should get your battle setup right and suffer minimal hurler losses.

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They either get swarmed, since they walk so close to melee range, or they toss their boulders into the backs of their fellow giants (nothing new but these missiles are way too dangerous to allow friendly fire).

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Strange, I've always found friendly fire was not a big concern with hurlers thanks to their limited range.

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I dunno what your strategy is, but I never have an army without a lvl 4 priest. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

To me, 1 priest is worth more than 7 snakes

7 snakes x 40 gold = 280 gold = 1 priest

7 snakes will die easily. The priest can preach well, build temples, lead 75 units, cast fantasism, become a prophet with smite... it's so much more worth it.

But I only use my 120 gold lvl 3 priest for preaching, temple building, and banishing.

[ March 10, 2004, 22:12: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

Re: Units seldom used.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You don't? Not even at the very beginning of the game? Maybe if you used more Serpents you wouldn't need a level 4 priest with every army. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I'm just giving you a hard time. I haven't really played much C'tis...although I did notice a sudden jump in the lifespan of my Serpent Dancers when I took a water blessing.

[ March 10, 2004, 22:15: Message edited by: fahdiz ]

Re: Units seldom used.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Using both is even better.

Re: Units seldom used.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Using both is even better. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, that's sort of what I was trying to get at. Thank you! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Units seldom used.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">wow. I love serpent dancers - they're a great chassis for bless effects, especially Water9. W/ Water9 they're fast, hit and poison everything in sight, and are very difficult to kill in melee. Hell, just use them head on against knights. They'll take a charge w/out any losses often enough. If you can afford more blessings they're even better http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

There only weakness is to archery fire.

Snakes are expensive, but nice to sprinkle in w/ ordinary troops if you're pursuing a bless strategy.

Re: Units seldom used.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Using both is even better. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, that's sort of what I was trying to get at. Thank you! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I WILL NEVERRRR!!!!!!!! nooope, no snakes for me, no way no how, no nono1no1!!!Awawhawa!!!AAH!!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

Re: Units seldom used.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think that's the problem...from the little I've seen Argitoth write about his usual C'tis strategy, there's no room in it for Water. And so it makes sense that he's never had an opportunity to give Serpent Dancers a fair shake.

Re: Units seldom used.
 

I'd dare to say that there are few balance problems with individual units. Any of the nation specific "elite" unites have their uses, even if some of them are very situational and/or require additional support and/or appropriate blessings.

My biggest gripe is that in most (if not all) cases, wherever there is a "light" and a "heavy" unit of comparable quality and availability, it is better to build the heavier unit, period. This is largely due to the fact that the difference in cost between the light unit and its heavy counterpart is ressources, not gold, and it is the gold that ultimately matters. This is more of a general problem than a problem with specific units. Why build velites when you can build principes or alae legionaires, why build cardaces, why build unarmored satyrs, etc ...

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I've never seen any need to recruit horse brothers. They move fast, but only 8 precision?

Black acolytes for Iron Faith Ulm don't seem to be particularly useful. They're cheap, but that's the only thing going for them. It would be nice if they were stealthy, like some other low level priests.

Re: Units seldom used.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Luckily, that has no impact on game balance, since no nation starts with Horse Brothers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Cheap priests are never, ever a bad thing. Especially if you're up against Ermor. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Units seldom used.
 

Horse Brothers can be good for Fire&Flee tactics making a gauntlet. A small army of them can harrass a larger army keeping it from making its moves.

Usually when people make comparisons between hvy and lite armored units, then say the lite units are worthless.. its because they are using the lite units exactly the same way they use the hvy units. In that case it only becomes a comparison of things like cost and armor rating. I think there are times when hvy units would be a waste. Patrols, flanking, covering many provinces on the map instead of having an army in every province, and fatigue?

Re: Units seldom used.
 

Horse Brothers are great for patrols. Faster speed of untit = better patroling. I usually build a small army of 24 and use it as a running patrol army to knock down unrest and as Gandulf stated - When a large army invades just use it to harass the enemy (use up gems etc...) until you large army arrives.

Re: Units seldom used.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In theory yes. But you can recruit the same kind of priests from independent provinces and recruit more useful leaders in your castles, so having Black Priests as a national unit isn't really helpful.

Re: Units seldom used.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Light units tend to be much more specialized than heavies. The extra cost of heavies also tends to come from resources rather than gold: As gold cost is commonly the limiting factor, and the determinant of upkeep costs, light units really have no advantage over heavies, upkeep-wise. As a result, in MOST cases, it tends to be better to go for heavier units. In specific, specialized cases, light units are a better choice, but most of the time, the heavies are the way to go.

This tends to match the pattern I've seen playing other games: Most of the time, heavier is better, unless you're skilled enough to understand exactly when, why, and how, to use light units.

Re: Units seldom used.
 

Hey what a great thread. Wauthan, you are excellent; I wanted to ask very similar questions, but yours are more precise. I'd also like to add 2 or three to the list.

- Pertaining to the question on Humanbreds: Does anybody *ever* play "Blood of Humans" on Abysia, and if so -- why? With all other "special themes" of the other nations, there are either new and different neato troops or certain drawbacks and new advantages. But what is the deal with BoH? I find it the only theme to be somewhat flavorless, and I see no new goodies in it except more ... humanbreds and less ... demonbreds. But why would I want that?

- People have already pointed out that Humanbreds make ok bodyguards; I'd just like to say "yes", and name the reason: they dont radiate heat, which will otherwise kill your Druids and other recruited commanders, as well as your non-fire-proof pretender, should you have one.

- Salamanders can be ok for clearing out weako indies with lots and lots of militia or soulless or something else. Unfortunately, they still die nicely to a stray arrow, and their moral is nothing to shout about. And they are not particularly useful against human opponents. And their upkeep makes me cry. If only their upkeep were reduced, I would make them. If they were sacred, say, for +X (15?) gold, would that be a cool mod? Or otherwise keep as is and make them -X (-20?) gold?

- villians: if anyone made a mod which made villians interesting, I would be grateful. Conceivably they would have to be re-nerfed for Black Forest however?

- I would like to use spider riders, but never have, because I also cant see their raison d'etre.

- I also havent figured out how to use Einheres and Skinshifters well, but that's just me.

- Horsemen (Spring and Autumn), I started a thread on these guys a while back, but also didnt receive any responses hinting at their great potential. 8 Precision for 30 gold and otherwise light cav stats.

Re: Units seldom used.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Good point, but that's not the most important reason, as you could use cheaper independant infantry for these mages, or give them Rings of Fire. OTOH Humanbreds are the cheapest fire-resistant (since most of your mages will radiate heat) troops that won't hamper your Warlocks, Anathemants, etc. movement on the map.

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- Salamanders [...] If they were sacred, say, for +X (15?) gold, would that be a cool mod?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't think that making them sacred for their current price would be unbalanced.

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- villians: if anyone made a mod which made villians interesting, I would be grateful.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What's your problem with them? They look OK to me. Same stats and abilities as Woodmen archers IIRC (although I didn't check that in a while).

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I also havent figured out how to use Einheres and Skinshifters well, but that's just me.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Einheres are just great. Just look at their stats when their berserk (+5) rages kicks in. One of the best ways I've found so far to punish an enemy who relies on bows and/or spears too much. I'm not as fond of Skinshifters, but they can be raised in droves because of their low resource cost. I think the Skinshifters of Midgard are a bit cheaper.

Re: Units seldom used.
 

i know the black priest gets a bonus when preaching...maybe the black acolyte gets one as well?

Re: Units seldom used.
 

Hey great. Helpful info here.
Wauthan, can you make your Sacred Salamander mod available to the public? And if you happened to have tons of time on your hand and/or I asked really nicely: could you make one where it is sacred but slightly more expensive (say: +10)?

Re: Units seldom used.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I also wanted to voice my "they rock" for Einheres. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif They can tear through lightly armored units (especially archers) like crazy.

Skinshifters are a favorite of mine, actually. I like playing Midgard, so I enjoy getting them for 20 gold instead of 25...because you can mass them, you can very quickly have two large squads of werewolves (!) flanking and dealing with light cav or the sides of large PD forces while your Einheres barrel straight on through.

Re: Units seldom used.
 

I've been busy trying out the advice and comments found in this thread.

I've changed my mind about C'Tis Elite Warriors and Falchioneers. These two units work great as a flanking force, as well as complementing each other well. Slave Warriors still seem to be redundant so far. I've decided to swap them for some kind of expensive dinosaur unit, if I ever find some sprites I can use. One of them Triceratops (sp?) might be a good fit for a C'Tis Version of an elephant unit?

Sacred Abyssian Salamanders worked out very well compared to decreasing their cost (AI produced too many) or upping the HP (became way too dangerous). This way they are frail, costly but potentially very dangerous units because of their area attack. Blessing also increases their morale keeping them in formation longer.

I tried out a number of ideas with the Villian unit, whose problem is not that it is a lacking archer but that its produced at a cost of permanent 5 unrest. Since they are also part of a the Ulm theme "Black Forest" I found that upping stats was a bad idea. I finally decided to give them a pillage bonus (5) which worked really well. A sneaky pillaging unit seems very thematic with it's description. It's not possible with the current modtools however (I gave a barbarian unit the Villians stats and tried it out that way) so it's a future mod.

Horsebrothers are interesting flanking units since they are so immensly speedy. I only used them as archers when they would simply have been killed if they entered melee. The new "hold and attack" order works in their favor. That said I very rarely use them since summoned flying units tend to work even better. A slight increase in precision might reflect their intended mastery of mounted warfare perhaps?

Einheres are the only heavy infantery I know were you actually want to meet archers. A whopping +5 in prot, str and att as well as never routing. They even use two weapons to maximise the damage output. These are the only units who I accompany with massed slingers since stray bullets only makes them go berserk, which renders them nigh immune to damage from any additional friendly fire.

Skinshifters are a flanking force, good for hunting down routing units, and are light on resources (they are bit of a Einhere lite really). Let's you build them everywhere and in great numbers if needs to be.

Spider Riders and Horsemen suffer from nearly the same problem. If there were some kind of Fire and Avoid order to make these units close in on melee units but keep out of actual melee range I would use them in hordes. That said there are some good advice on their use below.

[ March 11, 2004, 12:29: Message edited by: Wauthan ]

Re: Units seldom used.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In theory yes. But you can recruit the same kind of priests from independent provinces and recruit more useful leaders in your castles, so having Black Priests as a national unit isn't really helpful. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I seem to remember that the Black Acolyte is more than just a Holy 2 priest who costs 80% of corresponding independent priest. Doesn't he get some sort of preaching bonus as well, or does my memory fail me here.

[Not an argument for using them especially against Ermor, but I played a single game as Iron Faith some time ago, and I seem to remember that I found excellent work for the Black Acolytes. It may have helped that I went with a Wizard Tower to allow me to build a lot of fortresses for better national recruitment]