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-   -   Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What's the goal of each? (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=18310)

Spacepain March 14th, 2004 10:31 PM

Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
What constitues and what you should do during each phase of the game, beginning, middle, and late, is one topic that the goal for most if not all nations is probably similiar.

As of present I understand that early game is a giant land grab, mid game is collection of magical resources, and gradual build up of small advantages, and the end game is when you let loose all the stored up magical goodness.

Am I wrong in this methology? It could easily explain why I am being beaten even by the easy AI....

Torvak March 14th, 2004 11:16 PM

Re: Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
survive, grow, mop up

Arryn March 14th, 2004 11:28 PM

Re: Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Spacepain:
As of present I understand that early game is a giant land grab, mid game is collection of magical resources, and gradual build up of small advantages, and the end game is when you let loose all the stored up magical goodness.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">More or less, yes.

In the early phase, you must strike a balance between rapid expansion and conservation of your troops. Expand too slowly and you allow your opponents to grow stronger faster than you do, a losing trend. Expand too fast, and you cannot hang on to your gains once you encounter your enemies. Which is doubly painful if you had to bleed excessively to make the gains.

Once you begin to encroach on opponents (or they to you) you must decide who it is most advantageous to attack, where best to hit them (either to weaken them or to strengthen your own position), and when to do so. It is not always best to pick on the weaker opponents first. Often it's much better to go after the strongest ones before they can become even more dangerous. A good exception is to take out enemies on the verge of extinction anyway, just to deny your opponents the resources from capitals. If two enemies are at war, you have the choice to dogpile on one of them and try to grab the spoils and/or hasten that one's defeat, or you can let them weaken each other all by themselves while you take advantage and go pick on someone else (coming back later and killing both of the now-weaker warring parties).

As you gradually expand your empire by annexing the lands formerly held by other empires, you will also be researching ever more powerful magics, and increasing your magical income, while also building magical items to enhance the capabilities of your casters and army commanders.

The end game is reached when you become the dominant power (ie: no single enemy is capable of posing a serious threat, perhaps not even any two of them) and all that is left is the systematic destruction of each and every remaining challenger. In SP, this is easy as the AIs do not stop fighting each other and suddenly all band together Civ-style to try to stop you. Against humans, anyone who grows too strong is likely to get the attention of all the other players, unless you have already worked out some form of alliance. Which, of course, will only Last until someone stabs you in the back (or you them).

Psitticine March 14th, 2004 11:31 PM

Re: Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
I think you've got the right basic idea, at least IMO. Personally, I'd define the nature of the 3 stages as follows:

EARLY GAME - Securing resources for future use

MIDDLE GAME - Developing resources, research, etc. and pressing against weak enemies

END GAME - Bringing developed power to bear against the tougher opponents

Each game varies a lot, however. Last "big" game I played denied me anything that I'd consider an early game. I started between two powerful opponents and had to strike out at one before becoming pinned in. It was full-out, open war from Turn 1, and I was always too busy scrambling to keep others off my back to really spare anything more than a few crumbs for development or plotting for the future.

Norfleet March 15th, 2004 01:39 AM

Re: Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Psitticine:
EARLY GAME - Securing resources for future use

MIDDLE GAME - Developing resources, research, etc. and pressing against weak enemies

END GAME - Bringing developed power to bear against the tougher opponents

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This tends to resemble how it works in SP, and MP, if you're doing well.

Otherwise, it works slightly differently:
EARLY GAME - Your attempt to secure provinces and resources. This will undoubtedly be stymied by a shortage of resources, a number of early battle snafus and pyrrhic victories, and possibly your lab burning down on turn 2 and temple on turn 3.

MIDDLE GAME - Your desperate struggle for survival as somebody ELSE performs the "pressing against weak enemies part"...on YOU.

END GAME - The part of the game where, finally, in despair, you turn your empire over to the AI. Alternatively, if you're like me, you finally go down in a blaze of glory. Or at least in flames.

This is probably the early, middle, and late you're more likely to become familiar with, in MP. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 14, 2004, 23:41: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Psitticine March 15th, 2004 02:43 AM

Re: Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Norfleet:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Psitticine:
EARLY GAME - Securing resources for future use

MIDDLE GAME - Developing resources, research, etc. and pressing against weak enemies

END GAME - Bringing developed power to bear against the tougher opponents

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This tends to resemble how it works in SP, and MP, if you're doing well.

Otherwise, it works slightly differently:
EARLY GAME - Your attempt to secure provinces and resources. This will undoubtedly be stymied by a shortage of resources, a number of early battle snafus and pyrrhic victories, and possibly your lab burning down on turn 2 and temple on turn 3.

MIDDLE GAME - Your desperate struggle for survival as somebody ELSE performs the "pressing against weak enemies part"...on YOU.

END GAME - The part of the game where, finally, in despair, you turn your empire over to the AI. Alternatively, if you're like me, you finally go down in a blaze of glory. Or at least in flames.

This is probably the early, middle, and late you're more likely to become familiar with, in MP. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">LOL! That revised sequence does seem a bit familiar-seeming, now that you mention it!

Norfleet March 15th, 2004 02:57 AM

Re: Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Psitticine:
LOL! That revised sequence does seem a bit familiar-seeming, now that you mention it!
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Just keeping it real. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

After all, if you HAVE to ask this question, you're probably going to become more familiar with MY sequence of events before you become familiar with yours.

And isn't "seem a bit familiar-seeming" kind of redundant?

Spacepain March 15th, 2004 03:28 AM

Re: Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
Quote:

After all, if you HAVE to ask this question, you're probably going to become more familiar with MY sequence of events before you become familiar with yours.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Just making sure I was trying to do things right... mind you TRYING.

Arryn March 15th, 2004 04:06 AM

Re: Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Spacepain:
Just making sure I was trying to do things right... mind you TRYING.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Lesson No. 536: There's no "right way" to play Dom. But there are many wrong ways. If you're getting your heiny kicked, you've obviously discovered yet another wrong one.

Your methods, tactics, and strategies must adapt to each and every circumstance -- constantly. What worked in one game may and often does fail spectacularly in the next. It's one of the great things about this game. Dom 2 is hardly boring ...

Norfleet March 15th, 2004 04:54 AM

Re: Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Spacepain:
Just making sure I was trying to do things right... mind you TRYING.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Like in life, the objective of Dominions II is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women.

As Arryn points out, there is no one "right" way to do it, although there are lots of WRONG ways, which end with you on the receiving end, as in my sequence of events. And while it's nice to hear all these wonderful strategies that are sometimes dubious and often worked because of exacting circumstances, execution, and a touch of complete and utter madness, none of it is a substitute for improvement through getting your *** handed to you repeatedly.

In short, play more Dominions II. Get used to dying. Make sure you go down fighting. Remember: You enter the world screaming and covered in blood. The fun doesn't have to end there.

[ March 15, 2004, 02:56: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Spacepain March 15th, 2004 05:04 AM

Re: Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Like in life, the objective of Dominions II is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sounds like somebody has been playing TOO much dom2...

Well, the tricky part is one can only be beaten by the easy AI so many time before one is slightly discouraged... I've taken an estudious approach to becoming rather good at many other game and been met with considerable success, so why not apply that to this game? Whilst, I certainly don't plan on becoming a pro by being simply book smart, I do hope to figure out the general outline behind a "good way" to play dom2.

Arryn March 15th, 2004 05:42 AM

Re: Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Spacepain:
Whilst, I certainly don't plan on becoming a pro by being simply book smart, I do hope to figure out the general outline behind a "good way" to play dom2.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">{shameless plug} Read SP AARs to learn about certain nations. Mainly useful for SP. Not advised for MP. Follow Norfy's advice for MP: get beat upon a lot and avoid repeating the *same* mistakes (keep making new ones). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Arryn March 15th, 2004 05:44 AM

Re: Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Norfleet:
hear the lamentations of their women.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">*This* particular woman only laments having a miserable cold that's really pissing me off, as it's ruining my ability to play Dom ...

Norfleet March 15th, 2004 06:10 AM

Re: Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Spacepain:
Sounds like somebody has been playing TOO much dom2...
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Dominions II is a good thing. And as everyone knows, too much of a good thing....is an AWESOME thing!

Quote:

Originally posted by Arryn:
*This* particular woman only laments having a miserable cold that's really pissing me off, as it's ruining my ability to play Dom ...
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's an excellent idea. Let me go see what ranks are required for that plague spell again.

[ March 15, 2004, 04:11: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Norfleet March 15th, 2004 06:17 AM

Re: Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Spacepain:
Well, the tricky part is one can only be beaten by the easy AI so many time before one is slightly discouraged...
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And this is why you need to get your *** beat by real people. So you can be owned in entirely new and different ways!

And....wait, the *EASY* AI is beating you?

Well, in that case, first, I'd suggest taking a nation that is fairly conventional, so you'll get a decent level of exposure to how the game works, and is also fairly difficult to attack. Try Atlantis, or R'lyeh. That will impede the AI's ability to rush you, and you'll be able to experience a full game without being swarmed. Once you get that down, try and go faster. Then move onto land.

NTJedi March 15th, 2004 06:35 AM

Re: Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Spacepain:
.....why I am being beaten even by the easy AI....
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wow... from what I've been seeing the AI opponents are pinned down or dead by mid-game. Ermor is the only challenging AI opponent and with 2.08 he seems more peaceful(he had 1200 units just sitting in his castle mid-game).

Perhaps the developers could make the easy difficulty easier and the harder difficulties harder.

March 15th, 2004 06:52 AM

Re: Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
Maybe because you have been playing for 3 Months and this guy has been playing for a week?

Or it might be he hasn't found the AI weaknesses yet to exploit.

Argitoth March 15th, 2004 06:56 AM

Re: Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
EARLY GAME - Expand as quickly as possible and defensively as possible.

MIDDLE GAME - Find counters for everything your closest enemy can throw at you

END GAME - Give up because the micromanagement is too harsh and you've just lost your pretender for the second time and realize you overlooked a few things of your enemy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Arryn March 15th, 2004 07:11 AM

Re: Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Argitoth:
END GAME - Give up because the micromanagement is too harsh and you've just lost your pretender for the second time and realize you overlooked a few things of your enemy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well that's certainly worthless advice. Giving up is cowardly, and teaches one nothing, so one just goes on repeating mistakes. One learns the most from struggling on, the worse the challenge, the more one should learn. That is, if one is open to learning, instead of whining about losing and how unfair life, the universe, and everything is.

Norfleet March 15th, 2004 07:18 AM

Re: Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Argitoth:
END GAME - Give up because the micromanagement is too harsh and you've just lost your pretender for the second time and realize you overlooked a few things of your enemy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You're just sore that you got your sorry little butt whooped by Mivayan. Your empire could not POSSIBLY have THAT much micromanagement. Although you did very well at getting your butt kicked piecemeal, from what reports I saw from my scouts.

Spacepain, I suggest you ignore the little man. Winners never quit, and quitters never win. Never give up, never surrender! A warrior fights to the death! Next time, stand up and die like a man!

[ March 15, 2004, 05:24: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

PhilD March 15th, 2004 09:13 PM

Re: Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Spacepain:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Norfleet:
Like in life, the objective of Dominions II is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sounds like somebody has been playing TOO much dom2...

Well, the tricky part is one can only be beaten by the easy AI so many time before one is slightly discouraged... I've taken an estudious approach to becoming rather good at many other game and been met with considerable success, so why not apply that to this game? Whilst, I certainly don't plan on becoming a pro by being simply book smart, I do hope to figure out the general outline behind a "good way" to play dom2.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Learn which independent provinces you can take easily and early. These are not the same for all nations. After a few games (preferably with the same nation), you should be able to take the first provinces with very few losses.

Hint: Barbarians hit pretty hard, but they have little protection; they're perfect targets for archer nations, but will inevitably cause losses to melee troops (even with good protection). Knights and Longbowmen are tempting as they're good to recruit, but they're hard to kill early; avoid them until you can swamp them quickly.

What constitutes the early/mid/end game will depend a LOT on the map size and number of AIs. With large maps or few AIs, you'll probably have to fight a single AI instead of a multi-war; what this will look like will depend a lot on which nation this is (although AIs tend to not use their national forces enough, with the exception of Dead Ermor).

Try to build Fortresses. If you're like me, you're not building enough. Yes, they're expensive, but for most nations, your national troops should be most of what you buy, so this means building fortresses. Don't build them next to each other, still, as this gets counter-productive.

Oh, and send scouts around. Even if you hear that the AI is predictable. Shield your armies and borders with scouts; that way, you'll know if an enemy army is likely to reinforce the province you're planning on attacking, and you'll see the enemy moving to attack you.

Taqwus March 15th, 2004 09:28 PM

Re: Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
For an easier game against AIs,
(a) Don't enable Ermor, unless the scenario forces it to be Broken Empire. Other AIs aren't too good at dealing with Ermor and the job will basically be left to you -- ugly if you start on opposite ends of the map.
(b) Try relatively few players on a moderate map. Five AIs on Aran or Karan should be manageable; there's enough room to expand without worrying about a war against multiple AIs early unless you get really, really unlucky with placement.
(c) You might want to play with landlubbers only (no Atlantis or R'lyeh), as striking back as a landlubber is tricky for many.

Norfleet March 15th, 2004 10:20 PM

Re: Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by PhilD:
Oh, and send scouts around. Even if you hear that the AI is predictable. Shield your armies and borders with scouts; that way, you'll know if an enemy army is likely to reinforce the province you're planning on attacking, and you'll see the enemy moving to attack you.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I rarely send scouting forces against the AI, whereas I do so extensively against humans. The stealth ability of scouts is relatively poor, and the AI's tendency to splatter forces around everywhere and buy up large quantities of PD means that they'll get caught fairly often. The AI's behavior is simultaneously predictable(in that it will rarely surprise you) and erratic(in that there's no apparent rhyme or reason to what it does at times), so unless you're very experienced in how it operates, scouting will not tell you very much you didn't already know.

This does not apply to human opponents! Information is the key to survival against a human opponent, and you MUST scout, lest you be in for a nasty surprise.

PhilD March 15th, 2004 11:19 PM

Re: Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Norfleet:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by PhilD:
Oh, and send scouts around. Even if you hear that the AI is predictable. Shield your armies and borders with scouts; that way, you'll know if an enemy army is likely to reinforce the province you're planning on attacking, and you'll see the enemy moving to attack you.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I rarely send scouting forces against the AI, whereas I do so extensively against humans. The stealth ability of scouts is relatively poor, and the AI's tendency to splatter forces around everywhere and buy up large quantities of PD means that they'll get caught fairly often. The AI's behavior is simultaneously predictable(in that it will rarely surprise you) and erratic(in that there's no apparent rhyme or reason to what it does at times), so unless you're very experienced in how it operates, scouting will not tell you very much you didn't already know.

This does not apply to human opponents! Information is the key to survival against a human opponent, and you MUST scout, lest you be in for a nasty surprise.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Let's remember that Spacepain is having trouble beating the AI... so even if the AI feels predictable to you, it may not be so for everyone. Until the AI feels really predictable, scout. Then scout some more. And when you get to MP, scout even more. Build scouts in every able province until they walk on each other's toes.

ywl March 15th, 2004 11:40 PM

Re: Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Spacepain:
What constitues and what you should do during each phase of the game, beginning, middle, and late, is one topic that the goal for most if not all nations is probably similiar.

As of present I understand that early game is a giant land grab, mid game is collection of magical resources, and gradual build up of small advantages, and the end game is when you let loose all the stored up magical goodness.

Am I wrong in this methology? It could easily explain why I am being beaten even by the easy AI....

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Your methodology is correct.

What nation are you using? Each nation has some trick on how to use their units effectively. Man, for example, can be quite different from Ulm.

What do you mean by beaten by easy AI? It can mean two things: First, you're not expanding as fast as the AI. As a rule of thumb, you should be top on province, gold income and (usually) gem resource by turn 20 of the game. Second, you don't know how to handle the attack of the AI, which usually occur after turn 12 to 15. For that, you'll need to get used to how the AI behaves.

Wauthan March 15th, 2004 11:46 PM

Re: Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
When I first started playing this game the AI owned me in every single game. I would have propably put on the shelf and crossed it off as another stupid purchase if it had not been for this forum.

I started playing as Atlantis on the small The Sundering map. I selected four human opponents then handed control over to the AI on the first turn. That way I could fight against pretenders I had designed myself. Since the AI don't really go after Sea nations until late in the game, especially if you have not attacked it, I could research and build armies in my own pace as well as attacking one enemy at the time. The hardest part for me to learn was to be able to fight on several fronts at once. On a small map and as a sea nation this is not a problem so you can try out different strategies until you find one that works well enough.

[ March 15, 2004, 21:51: Message edited by: Wauthan ]

Spacepain March 16th, 2004 01:07 AM

Re: Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Try Atlantis, or R'lyeh. That will impede the AI's ability to rush you, and you'll be able to experience a full game without being swarmed.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">See, thats the confusing part... I can play the R'leyh, Ulm, Pythium, and any other race with respectable base units - units that are less vulnerable to being rushed early on- with relatively little trouble, and scrap wins - most of the time against - against easy AI. Its just a matter of more effectively utilizng resources than the AI, which isn't that hard, and having a little bit of luck.

When I start to approach magic *shudder* or try utilize a race without the really hardy units... things go down hill... quickly. Suddenly, I have to worry about not just keeping decent armies up to snuff, but I have that whole magic thing to worry about.

I tried Mictlan a few times and was repeatedly whomped, same goes with Machaka, Vanheim, Ermor (all 3 themes), etc...

So somewhere between the army part of the game and the magical side of the game I'm missing something.

[ March 15, 2004, 23:17: Message edited by: Spacepain ]

Norfleet March 16th, 2004 05:23 AM

Re: Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Spacepain:
When I start to approach magic *shudder* or try utilize a race without the really hardy units... things go down hill... quickly. Suddenly, I have to worry about not just keeping decent armies up to snuff, but I have that whole magic thing to worry about.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe that's just not your thing. I'm the opposite. I do great with races that have a strong magical base, and I crash and burn on a race with extremely poor magical ability, such as Ulm. I just don't do Ulm very well. Admittedly, as a more experienced player, I can hold off the AI anyway, but it's definitely an uphill struggle, and I probably wouldn't be able to manage it at all at your level of experience. Maybe it's just your lot in life to be stronger with the building and production of normal troops, and you should pick nations that cater to your personal preferences. If you want to expand your magical strength, try picking a nation which is a solid hybrid of these, such as Pythium or Arco. I found that I was able to somewhat improve my Ulm game after playing as Pythium a bit: Normally, I tend to heavily gravitate towards magic, as Ermor.

ywl March 16th, 2004 07:03 AM

Re: Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Spacepain:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Norfleet:
Try Atlantis, or R'lyeh. That will impede the AI's ability to rush you, and you'll be able to experience a full game without being swarmed.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">See, thats the confusing part... I can play the R'leyh, Ulm, Pythium, and any other race with respectable base units - units that are less vulnerable to being rushed early on- with relatively little trouble, and scrap wins - most of the time against - against easy AI. Its just a matter of more effectively utilizng resources than the AI, which isn't that hard, and having a little bit of luck.

When I start to approach magic *shudder* or try utilize a race without the really hardy units... things go down hill... quickly. Suddenly, I have to worry about not just keeping decent armies up to snuff, but I have that whole magic thing to worry about.

I tried Mictlan a few times and was repeatedly whomped, same goes with Machaka, Vanheim, Ermor (all 3 themes), etc...

So somewhere between the army part of the game and the magical side of the game I'm missing something.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There is nothing shameful using the basic units http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . Many good players win their MP game just by that.

Except for Mictlan, you can use similar heavy infantry tactics for Machaka, Vanheim and Broken Ermor. So, I don't know why you would have problem with them... Mictlan is hard - I'm still figuring out how to use it correctly.

There are tricks for the magic of each nations because they all have different combinations of magic paths. The is more variations if you used a magical pretender. It'll take a while to learn how to use magic efficiently. I've played the game for more than a year and I'm still trying different aspects the magic system on a weekly basis.

Try to get yourself familiar with one or two nations first. Even Ulm is not that limiting in magic, you just need to know the way...

Arryn March 16th, 2004 07:27 AM

Re: Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Norfleet:
I crash and burn on a race with extremely poor magical ability, such as Ulm. I just don't do Ulm very well.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I like Ulm, and they aren't all that bad magically, just rather severely limited in scope. Plus they are great at item-making, which compensates for a lot. It's not a nation I would choose to play against humans, but against AIs they are fine.

Playing Ulm is pretty straightforward: bash anything that gets in your way with your konigstigers (guardians) and jagdpanthers (black lords), and keep Albert Speer & Co. (your smiths) busy upgrading your cannon and armor. Your main short-term goal (and weakness) is to gather Italians (indies) to use as your luftwaffe and kriegsmarine. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Norfleet March 16th, 2004 11:05 AM

Re: Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Arryn:
I like Ulm, and they aren't all that bad magically, just rather severely limited in scope. Plus they are great at item-making, which compensates for a lot. It's not a nation I would choose to play against humans, but against AIs they are fine.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't find their item-making prowess THAT wonderful, given their lack of randoms that would increase the variety of forge targets. Forge of the Ancients as an early goal can help, but invariably I find that the inflexibility of their national magics, coupled with their high point demands for early production of their resource-expensive units, leaves me too thin on magic for my tastes. My best study of Ulmish behavior to date has been Condors....and he asks *ME* for advice. I do okay against the AI, but I am far from the master of Ulm.

Arryn March 16th, 2004 11:20 AM

Re: Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Norfleet:
My best study of Ulmish behavior to date has been Condors....and he asks *ME* for advice. I do okay against the AI, but I am far from the master of Ulm.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heh. I felt the same way when Charon was asking me for my opinions on R'leyh. I'd've done a R'leyh AAR a fair bit different than he has (even had I chosen the same map), but I do not think I would have done *better*. Just different. I know for certain most players would not do Jotunheim as I do if for no other reason than it's a blood nation and I don't use blood magics (I like the spells, but I refuse to hunt and sacrifice virginal girls. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

Norfleet March 16th, 2004 11:33 AM

Re: Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Arryn:
I know for certain most players would not do Jotunheim as I do if for no other reason than it's a blood nation and I don't use blood magics (I like the spells, but I refuse to hunt and sacrifice virginal girls. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Meh. Hunting and sacrificing virgins is nothing compared to global genocide.

Like my sig says....

ywl March 16th, 2004 05:12 PM

Re: Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
The advantage for Ulm, at least for standard theme is 120 free nation points, with no string attached.

Most of the other nations who have free points, such as Abysia or Caelum, requires a strong dominion to avoid income penalty and/or to fight effectively. For Ulm, the drain -3 is optional. It helps your defense slightly but you can live perfectly well without it.

Consequently, you can afford an expensive pretender, and more importantly use a pretender with low dominion strength (e.g. mage or dragon).

This is the advantage in additional to the production bonus and very decent infantries, availability of crossbow (sappper, somewhat expensive with seige bonus). Their smiths have no random pick. But with your better pretender, you can easily get around of that limitation.

Peter Ebbesen March 16th, 2004 05:34 PM

Re: Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
Blood-Ulm, or Ulm with lots of scouts harvesting blood slaves, makes for one mean devil-factory through forging Soul Contracts. Takes a while to get going unless you have a blood pretender to forge the initial contracts and make blood enhancing items, but once you have a decent blood income it isn't all that expensive to empower a smith to L3 in blood and boost him to L5 with items (Armour of Souls, Brazen Vessel), give him a dwarven hammer, and forge Soul Contracts for 40 blood slaves apiece.

It can even work in MP against the unwary opponent who does not consider Ulm a blood nation, if you just make sure to hide your devils really, really, well until you have a high production going. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Cainehill March 16th, 2004 05:50 PM

Re: Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
Originally posted by Norfleet:
Well, in that case, first, I'd suggest taking a nation that is fairly conventional, so you'll get a decent level of exposure to how the game works, and is also fairly difficult to attack. Try Atlantis, or R'lyeh. That will impede the AI's ability to rush you, and you'll be able to experience a full game without being swarmed. Once you get that down, try and go faster. Then move onto land.

For single player, I've found the ocean provinces are great even for land based nations (demo nations, default indie strength). Either of the aquatic mercenaries (Fishermen / Shipwreckers(?)) are capable of taking lightly defended territories; reinforced by the common local tritons, they take more heavily defended ones. Better yet, the leader of the Shipwreckers is a priest - thus letting you build water-based temples next to enemy dominion / territory.

Even without the mercenaries, a decent amount of Water magic seems to allow several of the nations (Jotuns, Abyssians, Machaka especially) to go underwater with enough strength to, again, take a lightly defended water province and then build local aquatic reinforcements - tritons are cheap (resource-wise) and fly in the water. Disposable water cavalry. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Of course, this changes if your SP game includes Atlantis or R'lyeh as opponents.

If Atlantis / R'lyeh aren't in game, though, the water areas have great benefits. Secure temples (if nothing else, a priest with appropriate magic item building them), secure gold incomes, frequent source of nature gems even without searching (Kelp Fortress), and with a rainbow pretender, lots of magic gem sources that probably won't be taken by the enemy.

Again - predicated on Single Player games.

Cainehill March 16th, 2004 06:33 PM

Re: Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
Quote:

Spacepain:
I tried Mictlan a few times and was repeatedly whomped, same goes with Machaka, Vanheim, Ermor (all 3 themes), etc...
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Machaka I've played several times and (after initial confusion) done pretty well against the easy AI, up until the demo turn limit kicks in at least. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

One thing that helped me was figuring out that Machaka's best spider units (Hunter Lords / Black Hunters - the others, imo, need a priest for morale) are great, especially with any half-decent blessing bonus. Great morale, armor, movement rates, and the Hunters are sacred, so cheap to maintain even if expensive to buy.

Machaka's Bane Spider assasin/scouts are also great - the heaviest armored assassins I've seen in the demo, good weaponry and morale. Quite capable of dealing with most commanders (cavalry are one notable exception - Bane Spider on a stick).

I'm not huge yet on the magic myself - haven't forged an item in 50+games, and limitted magic. Still - some summonables are grand - Summer Lions (Conjuration 4, requires Fire Magic 3) for example. But mostly magic has been in a supporting role to melee combat.

Good luck.

Taqwus March 16th, 2004 08:33 PM

Re: Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
Vanheim's Van units are actually rather brutal, considering halfway good prot of 14 plus Glamour. I tried them out with a Water-9 dragon to assist; the dragon, a Vanjarl prophet, Vanlade the Hero and roughly a dozen Vans whomp independent forces of 3 commanders plus 80-90 HI/militia quite handily. If I'd bothered bringing along air gems for Arrow Fend, perhaps casualties would be zero instead of ~1-2.
'course, it was basically game over when the Ancient Presence event apparently killed approximately 26000 people in my capital, but that's beside the point.

Norfleet March 16th, 2004 08:41 PM

Re: Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ywl:

Consequently, you can afford an expensive pretender, and more importantly use a pretender with low dominion strength (e.g. mage or dragon).

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Low dominion strength can potentially be risky for Ulm, as a poor dominion can leave you rather vulnerable to being priested or dominioned. I ended up having my dominion creeping into Condors' territory despite making no real attempt to push it simply because Ulm isn't any good at maintaining dominion, and a low dominion score just exacerbates the problem.

condors March 17th, 2004 02:22 AM

Re: Early Game, Mid Game, and End Game... What\'s the goal of each?
 
in sp its a different world than mp.

The way i play ulm, I learned strickly with earth magic and earth gem income. I had a thing for cyclops pretender. This may have slanted my tactics and view of things. I see any other gem income as a bonus. With the added gems coming in there are alot of things avaible to ulm but none of them can be counted on. Using those gems with summoned/indy/empowered mages gives ulm its flexibility. I just won a sp karan all nations impossible ai using fetishes to create an aboundance of fire gems, Ermor who normally dominates sp was delt with easily giving me 9 hall of fame smiths with my pretender. Mecanical men and a fire ring is easy access for ulm, battlefield/large area fire spells worked wonders.


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