Simple Idea for Witch Doctors ...
 

WDs got nerfed for thematic reasons (they are not good researchers). No problem. But it also says in their description "Some Witch Doctors live in villages where they heal the sick". Why not allow them to Cure Diseases in a way similar to how Arco Priestesses Heal Troops? Simple. Thematic. Not overpowering.

Re: Simple Idea for Witch Doctors ...
 

Not bad. I dont know if the Devs will go for it and add it to the game, but not a bad suggestion.

Re: Simple Idea for Witch Doctors ...
 

is a good idea, but overpowered unless the chance to heal is massivly reduzed, maybe 1/4 of the chance that the arco prietress has.

Re: Simple Idea for Witch Doctors ...
 

Why would it be overpowered on the Witchdoctor but not so on the Arco Priestess? It could be argued that Arco is stronger than Machaka even without the healing Priestesses, which are merely one of their many strengths, and yet no-one is saying that Arco is overpowered.

[ April 04, 2004, 09:16: Message edited by: Teraswaerto ]

Re: Simple Idea for Witch Doctors ...
 

While I agree that I haven't seen anyone _say_ Arco is overpowered, I believe it is generally considered one of the best nations.

Now, as to why it is overpowered...

The Witch Doctor is, what, only 80 gold now? He's still a pretty good researcher. He also can forge Fever Fetishes innately, and summon Mound Kings to carry them. He's not sacred like the Priestess, but he can pay for his own upkeep with the Fever Fetish. It's kind of a wash. In fact, I think these reasons are the ones they'd cite for reducing his research in the first place.

Bayushi Tasogare

Re: Simple Idea for Witch Doctors ...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I was wondering how long it would take for someone to say that Arco IS overpowered (which you really didn't, I know). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Which it probably is, if "overpowered" means more powerful than others.

Certainly the Witchdoctors would need to cost more than they do now if they had healing powers.

Re: Simple Idea for Witch Doctors ...
 

I like the idea, and dont think it would make them overpowered. I find them currently over-nerfed.

Re: Simple Idea for Witch Doctors ...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If they had full healing, sure - but I think what was proposed was simply healing disease, not that they heal all ailments. Healing disease certainly shouldn't increase the price much, if at all.

Even full healing doesn't seem like it should increase the cost much, but I may be underestimating the power of healing. (And it would also take away from Arco's big thematic draw of being the only nation with easy access to healing.)

Re: Simple Idea for Witch Doctors ...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, Cainehill. That is what I meant. They would only be able to heal *disease*, not replace lost limbs etc. Very thematic. Not too powerful.

[ April 04, 2004, 16:04: Message edited by: pole_shift ]

Re: Simple Idea for Witch Doctors ...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I disagree with this - the ability to make afflictions disappear is very interesting when you start using SCs, or, as Alex would call them, thugs. When you have a significant investment in a single unit, being able to remove the afflictions is really important.

Of course, there's always Gift of Health for that, but it's only in SP that you can be reasonably sure it won't be fought over.


Giving cheap affliction removal to Machaka would mean... I don't know, but it very possibly could result in significant balance shifting.

Re: Simple Idea for Witch Doctors ...
 

Witches too then? Iirc, their flavor text also includes a line about peasants fearing their healing powers...

Re: Simple Idea for Witch Doctors ...
 

I'd support giving Witch Doctors the ability to heal diseases like Arco priestesses can heal any affliction. (Everyone who hasn't yet should note that the suggestion was to give Witch Doctors the ability to heal only diseases, not other types of afflictions.) I don't see it shattering the game balance, as it isn't terribly useful against most enemies. Mostly perhaps Dead Ermor if you miscalculate your need for supply items, and C'tis with Miasma theme, I'd think.

Re: Simple Idea for Witch Doctors ...
 

I would view the ability to heal ONLY diseases as something not worth bothering with. I mean, what you're proposing is just not really strategically sound, from a logistical sense. If you're playing against hostile dominions or Miasma (which I guess qualifies), you're not going to stay in that dominion to heal your troops. Also, if you get unlucky and don't heal the disease in a few turns, the troop will have enough afflictions that it's probably better off dead anyway.

On the other hand, if you don't stay in their dominion to heal people, you're not gaining anything.

Now, if you're proposing that they heal diseases _without using a command_... I would have to oppose that suggestion on the grounds that it's unbalancing.

Have you considered the possibility for abuse of Fever Fetishes? You can just move the Fetishes around while the Witch Doctors just heal the diseases. Especially if they remove the ability of undead to have the Fetish, you're talking about Machaka being the only nation to be able to profit long-term from them.

No, I really don't think the Witch Doctor needs anything to make him good just as he is.

Bayushi Tasogare

Re: Simple Idea for Witch Doctors ...
 

I like the idea of the Witch Doctor being able to heal disease only, and it would require using a command, but for thematic rather than balance reasons. Thematically, the Sorcerors should also be able to do so, because they are described as powerful witch doctors.

I'd also look at other units that might be given such an ability, rather than making it a monopoly of Machaka. Machaka already seems to me to be a very powerful nation. I certainly can win games with it, and I'm 0 for 3 against the AI playing as Arco, though that's no doubt because I haven't really explored the ways to exploit their magic.

Machaka Witch Doctors are good already for their stats and cost. Lowering their research was appropriate and also balancing. The Machackan Sorceresses are plenty good researchers, and also can be demi-SC's with the right magic tricks.

Besides having great hoplites, cheap cannon fodder, very strong and blessable, spider cavalry, and a good mix of mages, Machacka also starts out with Blindness as a national spell. That is already a very powerful special abilities with Witch Doctors get from the start. It's an SC- and strong-unit- countermeasure, quite economical and available from the start.

PvK

Re: Simple Idea for Witch Doctors ...
 

Is it possible to heal disease from fever fetishes? Would it get healed at the beginning of the turn, restore your hps, and then re-disease you? Or would nothing happpen? If it's the former I could see that as being a pretty useful ability. Oh, regardless, I guess you could just keep passing the fever fetishes around and heal the guy not holding one but that's more micromanagement than I like.

Overall, I think if coding in the special ability to just cure diseases takes a significant amount of work then it isn't worth it. But if it's easy it might be ok.

Re: Simple Idea for Witch Doctors ...
 

A unit cannot heal an affliction caused by an item it still has. So no healing diseases of Fever Fetish, eyeloss caused by Eye of Aiming etc.

And I think Pangaea has some possibilities as Fever-farmer. Remember, ALL their commanders have recuperation... They don't have national mages with innate fire/nature mix, but I think that Panii can get their random in fire. I'm not sure though, as I still have to stay with the demo... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif *sigh*

Re: Simple Idea for Witch Doctors ...
 

Using recuperation or disease-healing as a way to use fewer fetishes seems like it would need insane amounts of micromanagement, moving them around every 4-5 turns. But it might be an effective strategy. The reduced micromanagement is one reason I like the option to use undeads to carry them.

Not so sure about basing a strategy on fewer fetishes and pans... they cost 350 gold and 1 out of 8 has a fire pick. But if you get a fire pan it could work. 8 hp recuperating scouts for 20 gold are nice to carry them, or perhaps dryad researchers too.

Does recuperation have 10% or 25% chance of healing an affliction? If 10% then it is useless for this purpose.