drain life has no MR check??
 

Is there any defense against it at all? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

It seems like if you are going to have a prec 100 armor negating, fatigue restoring, no-MR SC killer, that death magic is not the place for it.

The path is VERY strong already, and it's not like ermor (and most casters with 0 enc) needs the help.


Rabe, hoist on his own assassinating petard. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: drain life has no MR check??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes. Lifelessness. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: drain life has no MR check??
 

Heh. Does that defend against it, or just deny fatigue restoral to the caster?

I wouldn't be surprised if it still damages/kills.

Bloody Hell, Ermor gets all the breaks.


Rabe the Drained of Enthusiasm

Re: drain life has no MR check??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Feels like it belongs in Death Magic to me. It causes *DEATH* after all. Where *ELSE* does it belong? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

And generally, trying to kill Dusk Elders is way more trouble than it's worth. A Dusk Elder has a better than 50/50 shot of surviving even an Earth Attack, unassisted. With a few Ghosts as bodyguards, those odds rise to pretty much certainty. Anything you could equip on a regular assassin that would let you kill Dusk Elders would cost you more than the Dusk Elder!

And you still risk being potted by a Drain Life.

Re: drain life has no MR check??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Feels like it belongs in Death Magic to me. It causes *DEATH* after all. Where *ELSE* does it belong? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Perhaps it would seem more natural to come from blood magic or at least mixed with blood magic. Since Blood is the essence of life... and the spell is drain life.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There's lots of spells from all schools of magic which cause death.

Re: drain life has no MR check??
 

It belongs in Death because if you harken back to the days of Magic The Gathering you will remember it was a black magic spell. That provides all the justification necessary to make it death magic.

*cough*

Re: drain life has no MR check??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That spell exists also, called "Leeching Touch".

Re: drain life has no MR check??
 

Of course, that particular game (compared to Dominions) also merged fire with earth, air with water and astral, and, incidentally, blood and death.

Re: drain life has no MR check??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That spell exists also, called "Leeching Touch". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There's quite a difference between Leeching Touch and Drain Life. A range difference of about 20... making one a ranged attack and the other more of a melee attack.

Re: drain life has no MR check??
 

Nevertheless, it does seem rather remarkable that there is absolutely no way for a living creature to defend against Drain Life. And wasn't there another thread floating around somewhere pointing out that Drain Life fatigues its target even when it misses?

Re: drain life has no MR check??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, dying seems to work pretty well. Can't be drain-lifed if you die.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That was about life-drain attacks. It seems to be, if anything, a peculiar interaction between said attacks, and general on-hit effects, and mirror images.

Re: drain life has no MR check??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, I've started such thread some time ago. Currently the lifedrain (attack, not the spell) is buged, meaning every attack on mirror imaged target results in fatique drain even when there is no damage. Maybe it is biger than that, but that much is confirmed.

Re: drain life has no MR check??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Norfleet is being funny here, which is good.

But he's also implicitly suggesting the (i.e. his, as ermor champ) little munchkin cocktail be preserved, which I think is lame.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Um... this is my point. DE are already tough targets, they don't need Drain Life to be balanced.

I would make Drain Life a water spell, very high level (7-9) and see whether that helped make water a more useful combat option. It needs unresistable damage more than any other path.


Rabe the Pro-Life (Kinda...) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: drain life has no MR check??
 

Ah, right... I was mixing up the Drain Life spell with life draining melee attacks. Sorry about that. That's less of an issue then, seems to me. Drain Life is what, a level 5 spell? That requires 4 Death to cast? Those aren't easy requirements to meet, hence the spell should be fairly powerful if there's to be any justification for trying to get access to it.

And it does seem to me that Drain Life is a highly appropriate Death spell. Whereas it doesn't fit thematically at all with Water, so far as I can see. Water could probably use a few more nice combat spells, but that doesn't mean they should have this one.

Re: drain life has no MR check??
 

All life as we currently understand it is water-based.

Think of it as desiccation on steroids. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I'm not saying it's a perfect solution (so to speak! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif ) but to say it doesn't work because isn't thematic is simply wrong.

One might just as well argue that non-vampiric undead should be immune to reinvigoration of any kind. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

The point is path and nation balance.

Drain Life is the closest thing to a sure single target killer in the game.

The three big water nations (atlantis Ryleh and TienChi) are all conspicuously underutilized, death/ermor is not.


Rabe the Naturalist

Re: drain life has no MR check??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not in Dominions 2 it isn't. Abysians can't be water based - their touch burns wood, meaning that water would boil within them. Likewise, Caelumians probably don't have much water, or it'd freeze.

I'm all for helping Water magic out, but I don't think Drain Life should be there. Does seem rather surprising that it isn't affected by MR, and has no defense against it though.

Re: drain life has no MR check??
 

There are multiple defenses vs the Drain life spell: having loads of hit points, regeneration & reinvigoration, luck, life leeching of your own via spell/attack.

Re: drain life has no MR check??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Dusk Elders are D3?1. Only a D4 elder or one with a skull staff can drain life. You just chose the wrong one to try to kill. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: drain life has no MR check??
 

Heh. In a single-player game Last night, a Skratti kept trying to Drain Life one of my SCs.
Unfortunately for the Skratti, the SC was an Elemental Queen of Water with extra hp from heroic toughness, and thus capable of regenerating an insane number of hp per round in addition to the hp and reinvigoration she was draining from fleeing Jotuns with her Wraith Sword. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

Re: drain life has no MR check??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not in Dominions 2 it isn't. Abysians can't be water based - their touch burns wood, meaning that water would boil within them. Likewise, Caelumians probably don't have much water, or it'd freeze.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree regarding abissians. As for caelum, perhaps they have antifreeze-type stuff flowing though their veins, that prevents their body's water from freezing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: drain life has no MR check??
 

I think that there are two separate issues, here:
1. Should Life Drain have a saving throw, or be
otherwise rebalanced.
2. Should Life Drain be moved to a different
magic school.

Lets not confuse the two.

Personally, I am opposed to moving it to Water,
because I think it fits with Death.

As for giving it a saving throw, I think that is
a good idea. Hell, as far as I am concerned,
there is no reason that no Amulet of Life Holding
is present in the game. There should be
resistance to Death magic just as there is
resistance to fire.

Maybe then we will see less Wraith/Hell swords and
Soul Vertices, which, at least for me, are a must
have on everyone who every gets into hand to hand.

As for Water magic, lets give it fatigue control.
Call it 'fluidity', and have it zero the natural
encumbrance. Armour will still hunder casting...
By the way, I am not so sure Water is underpowered
as it is. Quickness and Clams, by themselves,
make it quite desirable.

Re: drain life has no MR check??
 

I agree with Tuidjy. Some sort of immunity or resistance to death spells ala an Amulet of Hold Life would be nice. Or how about a magic item that makes life draining attacks backfire! That'd be neat, I think. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Failing that, however, some sort of saving throw for the Drain Life spell and similar stuff would be good. But the issue of whether or not the Water school should have better spells doesn't really come into it.

Re: drain life has no MR check??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think it's a terrible idea. There's no reason to reduce its usefulness, since it is no more powerful than many other spells that are out there.

Re: drain life has no MR check??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I take it you've never played against a competent C'Tis player then, since sauromancers are far more common, and much, much cheaper than dusk elders. A sauromancer that can cast drain life costs 180 gold and 10 death gems. A dusk elder to do the same is 30 death gems. You can produce three times as many death 4 sauromancers as death 4 dusk elders for the same cost.

Re: drain life has no MR check??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, I have.

I'm aware that Ctis has death spamming advantages... I used to play in Argitoth's games,... damn nails everywhere. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I hadn't posted in some time because the thread had gone off markedly from where I started it.

My argument was that death is a very powerful path, and that ermor's munchkin quotient was already quite high, so perhaps moving the decidedly (even uniquely, given the prec 100 long range w/fatigue profit+no MR save) useful spell, (which I never suggested be nerfed)to a more underarmed path (e.g. water) might be appropriate.

It was norfleet who suggested DE's were nigh indestuctable by assassins, and he wasn't making a cost optimization claim, so I'm not sure what your point is....

It is true that Ctis can use the spell more cheaply, but I never would have suggested otherwise.

Ctis has different constraints...

I don't necessarily mind a spell that lets ermor skeleton spam indefinitely, (it is ermor after all) but when it incidentally provides *extremely* good one on one protection... I begin to wonder if it isn't overdone.

If something is so attractive you *always* use it... then it might need to be looked at, or at least explained to those who think it too good to be true.

I was surprised it had no probabilistic (i.e. OE++) defence of any kind, and asked for comment from the grognards.

I said ermor/death didn't need the help, but that's my interpertation of Dom2 sociology, not a claim that ermor gets the cheapest drain life capable death magi.

My argument was that death magi having a monopoly on the spell didn't seem to me to helpful, given the current thanatropism in MP games.

I don't think castle spamming is helpful either, but it's quite effective, particularly for those nations that don't need pop for recruitment. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif


Rabe, who is familiar with Sauromancer Spam.

Re: drain life has no MR check??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's pretty much the definition of "overpowered" within the context of a game. You make a compelling argument.

Re: drain life has no MR check??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's pretty much the definition of "overpowered" within the context of a game. You make a compelling argument. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">But only if its true of all nations. This game doesnt do balance at a nation-to-nation level like many other games. Its a rotating balance like Stars and MoM

Re: drain life has no MR check??
 

Always using something is not the definition of overpowered by a long shot.

if i have water magic, i always use quickness. But not many suggest thats overpowered. If i have astral, i always use astral shield. If i have blood magic i always use devils.

Always using something doesnt make it overpowered, it just makes it one of the benchmark spells for that path (and yes, death has many of those). If anything makes lifedrain overpowered, its just the fact that it cannot be resisted.

Re: drain life has no MR check??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Lifedrain doesn't accomplish very much, as far as the caster is concerned, when employed against lifeless targets: While damage is caused, the caster gets nothing back.

The fact that it still causes both regular and fatigue damage, even against lifeless targets, of course, makes it extremely attractive even there, even if the attacker gets nothing.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Mages in general can be very difficult to kill, particularly if their paths are offensively oriented: Death is particularly good at this, as it doesn't really have anything that's "useless" that the mage can cast, unlike other paths.

To further exacerbate the issue, of course, Dusk Elders are also physically powerful, being possessed of a high defense stat, good hitpoints, etherealness, and a lifedrain attack.

The spell "Drain Life" is actually D4, and out of the reach of a stock Dusk Elder unless its random is in Death. This is not a concern which makes DEs difficult to kill, although killing staffed Elders becomes that much more difficult because of this.

Nor is a Dusk Elder "nigh indestructible": C'tissian Empoisoners do a good job of assassinating undead commanders....but Dusk Elders are mean, period.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sauromancers aren't easy to kill either, but they do lack the Dusk Elder's host of innate defenses and potent attacks.