Early game expansion rate
 

For those who have not had the pleasure to play against me, let me preface this by saying I am a poor player of this game.

What are minimum goals that I should be trying for in order to survive to mid-game in terms of:

1. expansion (X no. of territories by turn no. Y)

2. research (level X in Y no. of schools by turn Z)

3. mages/priests (no. of each for research & battle purposes by turn X)

4. magic sites/gem income (again, X no. of sites found by turn Y, and/or X gems/turn by turn Y)

5. gold income/turn by turn X

Replies or tips for terms for searching prior Posts are equally welcome (I've tried some searches already without finding just what I am after).

I know much depends on nations and scales. I am looking for minimums here, something along the lines of "if you don't have at LEAST this, you are screwed unless __________"

Re: Early game expansion rate
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Disclaimer: Let me preface this, that it all depends on the map/conditions of victory/nation/pretender. But I will answer in generalities as best I can.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In the TTT a benchmark is 12-14 by turn 10. Depending on the size of the map. But assuming you don't run straight into another players territory and you path your army correctly, this is achievable in all but the most crowded of games. My minimum where I feel I am doing 'decent' is a Province a Turn until turn 10. Though this is slow going, if you are sacrificing those early provinces for something (like research, or gems), then it could be worth it.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Like the Disclaimer said, this depends on alot of variabilities. You should have reached a Research Goal on the following turns 5, 7, 10, and 15. You can have earlier goals. (Like Raise Skeletons by turn 4) and this is hard to gauge, but I find myself setting goals based on those levels 5, 10, and 15 in particular.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Personally I only pull mage/priests from research duty if needed and I pull as many as I need and only those, as I don't want to hamper research. By turn 10 you should have a second fortress or in the end stages of one (Castle on turn 3 of 4). But I usually have 8-10 Mages by turn 10.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is really a variable of the map. You want as many as you can get. I usually have one mage on search duty as soon as I recieve a site searching spell that I can use. I will also take a hit in research (unless needed) and put my entire crew of mages on a search to cover all provinces when I get it.

Re: Early game expansion rate
 

Turn 1:
Take 1st territory
Buy mercenary
Recruit a mage + any troops you can afford.
Have your pretender research spells the first turn.

Turn 2
Take 2nd territory with starting army
Take 3rd territory with merc army.
Buy second merc army
Recruit a mage + any troops you can afford.
Move pretender to 1st territory to search for magic sites.
Have your 1st mage research.

I follow this format ~ until turn 4 or 5 when I buy a priest and a commander to start castling and building temples.

I usually use the mercs for larger provinces that have more troops so I don't waste my own. If the mercs are down to a low number of men ~ I usually try to kill the merc off in turn three so a new merc is available on turn 4.

I'm very new to the game so I don't know how smart this approach is but I haven't had much difficulty against the computer on normal.

I think a big part of the game is developing magic sites as soon as possible to give yourself an advantage over the competition.

I'm curious to how good/bad this approach is.

Re: Early game expansion rate
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In the early turns, maximizing your income should be your primary goal - with gold you can buy mages to research and/or locate magic sites, you can buy troops to expand faster and thus gather even more gold, and you can raise buildings to strengthen your emerging empire.

There are a few cases where you need to push reasonably fast for a specific research target - typically for a SC pretender to be able to buff him/her/itself before a battle.

So basically it's (5) first - which typically means (1) since these 2 points are strongly correlated, and sometimes (2) at the same time - which may require (3) if you aren't good at research, but OFC (3) requires (5). When you're good at (5), the rest should be easy to get.

Re: Early game expansion rate
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is a recipe for probable disaster with independent strength of 6 or greater.

Re: Early game expansion rate
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">He did say he was new at this. Maybe he's unaccustomed to playing at anything above Indy-3, where they likely wilt when you so much as breathe on them, as opposed to slaughtering anything but a potent national army or buffed SC.

Re: Early game expansion rate
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is a recipe for probable disaster with independent strength of 6 or greater. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah, after a few tragic mishaps I have concluded that it is safest to at least wait until you have scouting reports, on turn 2, before attacking anything. And if Indep strength is moderate to high, you may need to wait even longer while you research spells to buff your SC, or simply build sufficient troops with which to defeat the Independents.

How quickly you need to take provinces would also seem to depend on how strong the Indeps are. As for a number of provinces to shoot for, I would divide the number of provinces by the number of players and concentrate on getting approximately that many, before turning my focus to other matters. Defensible borders are also nice to shoot for, albeit difficult to achive.

And I think Nagot is right. It's all about the Benjamins. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Get lots of territory so your income is high, and that should allow most everything else to fall into place.

Re: Early game expansion rate
 

Well, call me crazy but I've always played with Indep strength of 9. Work for every territory and make the AI work for hi ya know?

And it really cuts down on explosive growth. Heck, I've lost my Pretender to more "white flags" than to any AI nation....

I try to avoid territories with lots of crossbowmen or Heavy Cavalry until I have a big army (usually by 20 turns or so). Crank out scouts and TRY to set up defensible chokepoints (as opposed to a perimeter). Meanwhile my pretender is busily researching at home. That sort of thing.

Although many are the occasion (often through my inept handling of defense) that my pretender has to take to the field to save the day...

Sometimes you guys amaze me. Like you're some kind of unstopable wave rolling over the enemy. Sheesh! If only I were so lucky! I'm still fighting for my life at turn 50 and sometimes even as far as turn 100.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Early game expansion rate
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Same here. I don't like the race for territories that medium and low Indep strengh result in.

Higher Indep means more chokepoints and strategically interesting situations than just painting the map green (or whatever color).

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Since I play with a similar style, what races/pretenders do you usually play with that strategy?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">More fun that way. If the Indeps are too weak the game turns too quickly into WWI with a frontline across the whole map and Somme like meat grinders for battles. I don't like it since it's completely out of character.

Re: Early game expansion rate
 

*Same here. I don't like the race for territories that medium and low Indep strengh result in.*

Since it's a world of turmoil, doesn't it make sense that the globe is peppered with barbarian and civilized kingdoms alike? Honestly, I don't see why there isn't a unique banner and artwork for every single territory. Or have barbarian tribes covering several provinces but that rarely (if ever) go conquer.

*Higher Indep means more chokepoints and strategically interesting situations than just painting the map green (or whatever color).*

Yep. I regularly depend upon buffers of indeps to protect my borders. Nothing like a stack of heavy cavalry, heavy infantry, and crossbowmen led by an indie hero to make the AI think twice.

Since I play with a similar style, what races/pretenders do you usually play with that strategy?

Well, I started with Ulm, and am now on Man, Tuatha theme. For Ulm I had the Lady of Fortune (I love the extra fortune bonus) and of course +3 luck on the scales...made for some beefy random events but production sucked from my +3 turmoil.

Now I have a rainbow sage with 4 in everything. I really dig my Tuatha generals (although horridly expensive) and the bards make excellent scouts. And with 1 nature magic they can provide fire support or research so they don't have to sit on their ***.

My "3rd generation" armies are made up of about 30-40 Vine Ogres and about 50 longbowmen. A couple of these guys and there isn't much that can bother me. Wind Guide and Aim tend to help the longbowmen really well (I don't have easy access to any fire skill mages so Fire Arrows sits unused).

I still have some old school armies with stacks of infantry and militia roaming about.

Hey! Here's a thought. I could copy my save files and you could see what I've done? Just tell me what files to send.

*More fun that way. If the Indeps are too weak the game turns too quickly into WWI with a frontline across the whole map and Somme like meat grinders for battles. I don't like it since it's completely out of character.*

Talk about out of character. I have a high priest who I got from a random event and he sorta fell into being a blood mage, well now I have him summoning fiends and I just don't feel right being nature guy AND summoning demons....

seems un-Tuatha-ish ya know? And I probably shoulda gone with the Lady Tuatha for a Pretender but I REALLY wanted those blessings at the start and didn't want to give up the points....

Re: Early game expansion rate
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Okay, you're crazy, and lest this thread be hijacked, let me refine my query:

assume a MP game with the "standard" 6 indep. starting strength when replying.

Re: Early game expansion rate
 

In response to the original post:

I feel questions 2 thru 5 depend on many variables such as how many players, what nation is being played, strategy being used, map size and I'm sure I missed some too.


as for the expansion (X no. of territories by turn no. Y)

8-12 territories sounds right... especially if you get a strong mercenary group.