Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

I've played this theme extensively in SP, but in my opinion it loses far too much over vanilla Arco to be a viable choice in a competitive game. The theme is very appealing at first glance, but many of it's units are overcosted and underpowered. Let's take a quick look at some of the changes over regular arcoscephale.

1) Loses Hoplite, Hypaspist, Elephant, Philosoper, Strategos, Heavy Cavalry, Bad Chariot, and the Hoplite and Hypaspist Commanders.

2) Gains Myrmidion, Icaryd, Wind Rider, Wind Lord, Chariot, Chariot Archer, Engineer, Philosoper, Icarid Champion and Sceptic

3) Also has access to two new heroes in the Daiadalos and Asterios. Their starting site no longer produces SSSSN, but rather AAEES.

So we see that GA Arcoscephale loses all it's good military troops (Elephant, Hoplite, Hypaspist, Heart Companion), and these are replaced with the Myrmidion, Chariots, and Wind Riders. Chariots are just plain bad. The attrition rate is awful. Those, and Myrmidions are terribly resource-intensive under a sloth forced theme. The chariot archer has perhaps the worst precison of a ranged unit while being one of the most expensive. The wind riders are good units, but they are not much better than Valkries, while twice as much.


Wind Rider 13hp 17ar 12mr 11str 12at 16df
Valkrie 12hp 13ar 14mr 11str 13at 15df

The wind rider has the additional bonus of a lance, but the other stats are comparable. Also note the Valkrie has 25 stealth and that slightly good ability called glamour. IMHO these are two comparable units. The Wind Rider is superior, but not by a large margin, yet costs 125 to the valkrie's 60

The icarid is much cheaper than the Valkrie, but is extremely difficult to mass, costing 28 resources and being capitol-only. It's stats are also not comparable.

The myrmidion isn't a bad unit, but again it's very difficult to mass due to it's high resource cost under sloth. Additionally they are armed with short swords. Combine that with a whopping 8 encumberance, and it's unlikely they can stand up to commparably priced infantry.

Myrmidion 12hp 17ar 10mr 11str 12at 11df Short sword
Man at Arms 11hp 15ar 10mr 10str 11at 12df Broad Sword
Blood of humans Abyssan HI 12hp 18ar 11mr 11str 10at 9df Morningstar
Swamp Guard 12hp 18ar 12mr 10str 11at 10df Falchion
Ermor/Plylithum Triarius 10hp 18ar 10mr 10str 11at 12df Long Spear
Tien Chi Imperial Guard 10hp 15ar 10mr 10str 11at 12df Falchionh
Zweihander 12hp 19ar 9mr 10str 10at 6df Great Sword
Hirdman 10hp 15ar 10mr 10str 11at 12df Broad Sword

All of these units are comparably priced. Only the Zweihander costs even close to the same number of resources and has the same 8 encumberance... yet costs only 10 gold. Every unit on this list has a better weapon, deals more damage, and has more staying power than the myrmidion. It's not even worth comparing them to the three exceptional hoplites that he replaces from standard Arco.

So in addition to losing our good infantry and elephants, we gain basicly nothing for regular army troops. The Myrmidion is a poor heavy infantry unit. The Wind Lord costs far too much. The Chariots are far too expensive to use against independants, and are of only limited use in large battles. Therefore we must gain something magically, right?

Wrong. We lose the Astrologer, the cheapest 3-astral mage available, and we gain no new mages. The philosopher is without question the best researcher available to any race, yet is only slightly more efficient than a sage, and cannot cast search spells or forge lesser magic items. The Engineer and Skeptic both have limited usage. Both are unique units with potential, but certianly cannot hope to have the game impact of bonus troops that other themes get. You can give me a laundry list of usages for these two units, and I will tell you that I'd rather have a Seithkona, Tuatha, Master of the 5 elements, Fortune Teller, or Galderman. I'd sure as heck rather have my Astrologers back. These units have a niche role, yes. However, they do not compensate for the loss of Astrologers in any way, shape or form.

Golden Era Arcoscephale is far too weak. I hope the developers choose to strengthen this theme in their next patch, as they did Blood of Humans and Desert Tombs in previous patches. While I concede that realisticly a Bronze-age myrmidon should not be able to stand up to iron infantry, there must be some magical compensation. The philosopher is a wonderful unit, however it is the only notable addition to this theme. Sadly this does not make up for losing the very strong hoplites and elephants... and certianly not the philosopher, who is nearly as powerful as an Arch-Seraph in my opinion.

Obviously these ideas haven't been thoroughly tested, and yes Zen, I'll mod it if enough people like the ideas.

1) Give the wind rider awe +1. The only national troops which cost more than a wind rider are the Hydra, Black Hunter, and Neifel Giant. This ability would boost their survival rate considerably, and probably make them one of the best national troops in the game. Since they are one of the most expensive, obviously that's what they should be. Massing them would still be prohibitive, due to them being capitol-only and expensive... but this boost is both thematic and greatly enhances their power.

2) Raise the cost of the myrmidon to 18. Boost hit points by one (13). Boost morale by two (15). Boost both attack and defense by one (12). Most of you have seen the movie Troy. Their portrayal of the myrmidons is somewhat generous, but there is no doubt the Mydmidon is supposed to be an elite fighter. These bonuses would reflect the power of the unit, while not losing the thematic short sword and bronze armor. There's no way these changes would bring them in line with einheres, or other top end infantry... but hopefully the myrmidons would resemble the expensive elite units they are supposed to portray.

3) Raise the cost of the Wind Lord to 350 gold. Add two levels of Air magic and the same +1 awe that the wind riders get. This would not make the Wind Lord the recruitable SC that the Tuatha or Drotts are, but would still be an extremely powerful unit. This is thematic, as Arcoscephale gets air gems with Golden Era. While he would be very expensive as compared to Drotts and Tuatha, the lance, awe and flying abilities probably compensate for the glamour, priest, and better magical powers of the others. This would be a difficult unit to balance, but I think it would be a good addition to the theme.

I'll see what I can do about whipping up a mod. It's 2:30am out here on the West Coast, but I'm off tomorrow and possibly by the time you read this I may have whipped something up. Let me know what you think of the ideas.

[ June 18, 2004, 10:27: Message edited by: Blitz ]

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

#modname "Golden Era Enhancement Mod"
By Peter Grauer aka Blitz
#description "This mod gives strong enhancements to Golden Era Arcoscephale, as well as the Arcoscephale national pretender, the shedu"
#icon "./empbanner.tga"
#domVersion 2.12

List of Changes (old values in brackets)

Wind Rider
- Awe +1 (0)

Myrmidon
- Cost raised to 18 (15)
- Morale boosted to 15 (13)
- Attack raised to 12 (11)
- Defense raised to 12 (11)
- Hit Points raised to 13 (12)

Myrmidon Champion
- Cost raised to 40
- Hit points raised to 15 (14)
- Morale Boosted to 16 (15)
- Attack raised to 13 (12)
- Defense raised to 13 (12)

Wind Lord

- cost raised to 400 (175)
- Awe +1 (0)
- Air magic level 2 (0)

Skeptic
- Stealth raised to 10 (0)

Shedu
- Encumberance lowered to 3 (4)
- Defense raised to 18 (10)
- Dominion raised to 4 (3)
- Protection raised to 15 (9)

#selectmonster 661
#enc 3
#def 18
#prot 15
#startdom 4
#end

#selectmonster 1077
#gcost 18
#hp 13
#mor 15
#att 12
#def 12
#end

#selectmonster 1071
#stealthy 10
#end

#selectmonster 1076
#gcost 40
#hp 15
#att 13
#def 13
#mor 16
#end

#selectmonster 1075
#gcost 400
#magicskill 1 2
#awe 1
#end

#selectmonster 1074
#awe 1
#end

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

Took me an hour. Since you can't post file attatchments in this forum, I just pasted the modfile. Just copy it and paste into a textfile. Rename the textfile to goldenera.dm and place it in your \mods directory. The banner points to the banner from the empowerment mod, so if you want that picture download that mod.

I'm gonna email the beta of the mod to gandalf, and maybe he can put the zip on http://www.dom2minions.com/ until it's in a reasonably complete form, at which point I can send it to Illwinter.

Enjoy.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

Why not start the Shedu with Astral 3 Earth 3, instead of 1? Let him be strong in those paths since he will pay dearly to have any others (and you're pretty much forced to buy Astral pretty high anyway to protect against Magic Duel). He already has a high base point cost, why doesn't he get anything much for it?

Limited magical versatility and item use is still a bit of a problem, but he can now much more cheaply get a level of magic power that can make him a contender on the battlefield doing something like Power of the Spheres, Summon Earthpower, Blade Wind x3. Compared to other battlefield mages he is pretty tough even without casting defensive buffs. So once the usefulness of body ethereal, stoneskin, attack rear is exhausted, he can start standing behind bodyguards and troops and casting powerful spells over them.

Oh, and those chariots that are so crappy? Not once the God casts Legions of Steel/Marble Warriors and Will of the Fates on them... Riches from Beneath will offset the problems of a mandatory sloth dominion, if you can afford it.

As for Golden Age: I like the idea of myrmidons being more of an elite unit in skills/morale. They may not have modern equipment but they can fight like the heroes of old http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif Awe on the wind riders seems cool too - and they *are* more expensive than Valkyries for little benefit. And I agree that Golden Age needs something magically to make up for the loss of the Astrologer, although I don't know what. Stronger or cheaper Mystics, a new mage, or maybe an arch-priestess with Nature 2 Holy 4 (making them a strong-priest nation)?

Hmm, I just had an idea. Give them the three Metal Adepts as capitol-only mages (perhaps a new capitol site, Metallic Tower?). They're astral and elemental, so they don't do anything a Mystic couldn't theoretically get; but they give you more predictability of what elements you get. Plus two of their elements are air and earth, which Golden Age Arco gets gems for. Best of all it requires almost no work to implement because the units already exist http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

Um, yikes. I think you guys have missed the point of GE Arco.

Asking why the units suck is like asking why Mictlan's units suck. Units aren't supposed to be GE's focus.

They lose the Astrologer, they gain the Philosopher. Both capital-only, with different foci. Oh, yes, they're not THAT much better than Sages... but no one gets Sages, do they? They're _clearly_ the best researchers in the game. No, they're not much good for anything but researching, but it's not like they'll be doing anything else.

They also have better access to Crystal Coins, so the loss of the Astrologer isn't so bad.

Clearly, GE Arco is supposed to be a magical powerhouse. Their units suffer by comparison.

And I'm not even going to touch the Shedu changes, except to say that you're wack. Not even immobile Pretenders get what you're suggesting the Shedu can get.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

I don't find GA Arco a weak theme overall, but I agree the wind rider needs something like awe to make it worth it.

The Shedu seems very weak at the moment, but I would just lower the point cost, and/or make it two earth two astral.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What then, is GE's focus in your opinion? Losing your best mage and gaining a great researcher? In case you haven't noticed, GA Arcoscephale has no abilities in Blood or Death. This means that unlike Mictan, they cannot hope to summon as good an army as mictan could. Earth summons are good, but the better ones are 5 earth, and your mages rarely come with more than 2E. Statues and clockwork horrors are nice, but they aren't devils and wights. The theme of GA seems to be research and flying creatures.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ok let's look at how I turned the Shedu into the hands down best pretender in the game shall we?

1) Added protection, which becomes redundant once you research alteration 1.
2) Lowered Encumbrance to 3, which is 3 more than undeads have.
3) Boosted dominion to 4, which is the same as the Dagon, Divine Serpant, Lich Queen, and Virtue.
4) Significantly raised defense value.

If you believe these bonuses raise this horrible pretender chassis to the level of a Virtue, Nataraja, or Ghost King, I respectfully doubt your grasp of the game. The facts are, you can buy a Manticore and give it Earth/Astral 1 and still have a cheaper chassis with 50 point path costs than the Shedu. Let's recap.

1) The manticore also flies and has limited item slots.
2) It costs 0 points, not 125
3) You can get the same Astral/Earth levels on a manticore, and save 25 points... while retaining 50 point paths in other areas.
4) While having lower HP and 6 protection vs 8, the manticore has higher strength, attack, defense, precision, in addition to 100% poison resistance as well as a poisonous stinger and bite instead of a hoof.

Ask yourself... how good is a manticore? Would you use a manticore with 18 defense instead of 12? That's what this "new" Shedu is. A manticore with 18 defense. God forbid this monster be unleashed on the Dom 2 community!

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, the Shedu isn't good late-game, but what nonhumanoid Pretender is?

You guys seem to ignore the fact that the Shedu can basically destroy any independent Province he wants, from about turn 3. And this is for the nation best at removing afflictions...

The Shedu is not part of the problem here.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Trust me, they are pretty bad. Even with all that stuff on them, they are going to get annihilated. Imagine if you will... on one side of the battlefield we have 10 chariots. On the other side of the battlefield we have 5 knights. Same gold cost, but the knights are about 3x cheaper in resources. You cast whatever spells you want, but the knights win. When you add in a squad of chariots, the idea is probably to flank and crush troops in the back. They really are not that good in the middle of the formation, although they can do a little damage.

In MP you aren't going to be able to run free into your opponent's backfield. You are going to run into resistance, be it knights (probably) or infantry (almost as bad). 10 protection and 18 defense on a 30 gold, 41 resource unit simply does not cut it in reality.

With that said, I don't think you can boost chariots much. I think a couple in a big army can do a little damage, but boosting them would make GA a little overpowered. I chose to focus on the wind riders, as they were the theme's signature unit, and a solution like awe seemed like a good fit. Awe is an incredibly powerful ability against independant troops, although it's usefulness against enemy elite troopers or mindless creations is somewhat lessened. I have a lot of experience with awe, as the Virtue is often my pretender of choice. I have a suspicion that awe +1 may be too high and it will have to be lowered to +0, but time will tell.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually the Shedu hits 100 fatigue after about 10 tramples and dies from exhaustion, regardless of his hit points. This is not apparent from looking at his stats, but if you think you can use him like a Wurm out of the box you are sadly mistaken.

Honestly the Shedu mod was an afterthought. I wouldn't use the "new" Shedu either, and I'm temped to just remove him so we can focus on the more important units in the wind rider and myrmidon.

[ June 18, 2004, 15:46: Message edited by: Blitz ]

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heh. This is laughable. "Chariots are no good when the unit most commonly to counter them is around". And 10 Chariots buffed by Mystics will stomp the hell out of those Knights. Maybe in your experience they don't, but in my experience playing GE in MP they do.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You do know there is a "Attack Cavalry" command right?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Couple in a big army? Meh. Chariots are one of the only saving graces for GE. The Myrmidons can't be gathered enough to make as much of an impact as the Chariots. Yes, they have weaknesses, but as soon as you counter that weakness, Chariots will mow down a good % of other national troops but don't have the inherent weaknesses of Elephants.

[ June 18, 2004, 15:51: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well I do recall saying that I didn't think they needed a boost at all, Zen. You seem to favor them more than I, but I think we're agreed that a strong, unroutable national trampler would be a little too strong.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And those 5 knights buffed by Inquisitors? It's hard for me to imagine a scenario where chariots charge free into any decent MP player's backfield without first meeting some kind of mounted reistance.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's exactly what you can make them. Unbreakable, 20 Prot, Air Shielded, Lucky, Ethereal Trampling Crew with decent MR. That is one of Arco's strengths.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Buffed by Inquisitors? Meaning with Sermons and Fantatisims? Or do you mean Grand Masters, with Luck and Ethereality?

It's happens quite a bit for me. They might meet resistance some of the time, but this isn't a flaw in the Chariots, but a flaw in your opponent. Chariots move fast enough and over infantry to get to a back row quite quickly. My only issue is their fatigue, which when I play GE I circumvent by making sure I can at least a few priestesses casting Relief.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Magical smack-down. Whether that be battle magic, summons, or forging items.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">First, it's Golden Era, not Golden Age. Second, no, they don't get as good summons as Mictlan can, but they do get better national troops. So I see no reason why GE Arco should get summons 'as good as' Mictlan.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They certainly research better than anyone else in the game, and get _the_ most versatile mage in the game to make use of it.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">First, I did not say he became the best pretender in the game. Simply that he doesn't need to be altered in the least.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">For early taking of Independents, I'd rather have the Shedu than ANY of these (yes, including the Nataraja).

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This fact is also wrong. Ignoring the GROSS hp difference between the two, I don't think you know how buying paths work.

If all you want is level 1 Earth and Astral, sure, the Manticore is 25 points cheaper. The stat differences are rather large (you cannot ignore the 85 base hp difference). Getting back to paths, though, if you intend to increase the magic paths at all, the Shedu will gain points relative to the Manticore. Say that you want 2 Earth and 2 Astral on the Manticore and the Shedu. For the Manticore, this comes to:

50 + 50 + 16 + 16 = 132 points.

For the Shedu, this comes to:

0 + 0 + 8 + 8 = 16 points. Add in the 125 base cost, and you get 141.

The savings you made on the Manticore have basically vanished at this point, and no one is going to take a combat Pretender with only 2 Astral.

You seem to have also missed the point that the Shedu is a size-6 trampler. It can easily kill more people per turn than the Manticore, thus routing people faster, thus taking less damage (and he has more HPs to start).

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which is why I think it's useful at least for a comparison.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">For no magic.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The savings is only if you stay at 1, which is not MP-viable.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And the Shedu is a flying trampler.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">With all due respect, you've missed several things in your argument. Considering what you've missed, I wonder if you've ever even used a Shedu.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm not sure if you are trolling or just being argumentitive, but at this point I'll just suggest you not use the mod =).

I think most players would agree with my assesment of the Shedu as an absolutely horrible example of a national pretender, but you clearly are not one of them and seem determined not to be convinced otherwise.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I find this strategy to be very effective with Elephants, but less so with chariots. I did post a rather long newbie tutorial on base Arcoscephale that went into rough detail about this.

I'd be more interested to know your views on the wind rider modifications, Zen. Since it sounds like you've played a lot of GA in multiplayer, I'd like to hear what you think. I did read a few Posts where you shared my views on the wind rider vs valkrie issue, but do you think +awe on a bless troop is potentially game-breaking or do you like the change?

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I was trying to avoid that issue. I do think the Wind Rider is not cost effective. I do think that they are strong with vast potential to do quite a bit in a game if you are able to use them right.

I can't say as I think Awe is the best move in the world. Because Awe is very strong against independants but as the game progresses it becomes more and more useless. I also feel that awe should be limited so that it is not so very common. If anything I'd like to give the Icarians Awe +0 so they might be useful for their cost and lowering the cost of the Wind Riders to something more feasible to even bless (100 is my gut instinct).

One other thing, while I think giving Wind Lords magic might be good, I don't know if it should be air. Then they would look and feel sort of like Vans. (Which GE already feels somewhat like already)

Edit: This might be because whenever I think of any pegasus type of thing, I think of Clash of the Titans. I saw it too mucha s I kid I think and it has distorted my perception of a few key mythological creatures (Medusa's and Pegasus as well as whatever Caliban was).

[ June 18, 2004, 16:40: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think it's safe to say that I don't troll, having been given ample opportunity and not taking it. About the most trollish thing I've done in this thread is to point out that it's Golden Era, not Golden Age (which I have now done twice).

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, I'm not going to be convinced with the arguments you've put forward so far, especially when they get basic facts about the game wrong (such as how buying paths work).

To be specific, if you have no levels in a path, the first level will cost the Path cost listed for the Pretender. The second level will cost 16 points. If you have 1 in a Path already, the second level (the first one you purchase) will cost 8 points.

To be fair, though, my initial post was reacting more to other people's comments about giving the Shedu EEESSS or EESS, which is completely unbalanced. Your mod, as I see it, wouldn't change much, but I shirk away from giving a Pretender with _that_ many HPs and _that_ much combat potential a base Dominion of 4.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You are definately right about awe having diminishing returns, but as you know it's incredibly powerful against independants and many nationals. I'm playing a game in another window now and my small group of 4 wind lords are doing very well in early expansion. Without awe they die far too easily for a 125 gold unit.

And you are definately right about the Wind Lord resembling Vans (and Tuatha), but if you are going to give them magic, but not air... then what? After all, it's a Wind Lord =). I'm not sure any of the other paths would be appropriate for thematic reasons. The new lords are pretty damn impressive. I've only recruited one, and he's easily as good as a Vanadrott... but obviously a Hangadrott (with soul vortex), or Tuatha (regeneration, elemental fortitude) is going to be better at the same price. The WL does fly with a lance and awe, however. I was hesitant to make him as powerful as either of the existing air SC's, and purposely overcosted him in relation.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You are right that the devs purposely made awe a very "special" trait. I believe only the dryad hoplite has it on a national troop. I think it's more thematicly apropriate on a pegasus than it would be on a lot of other troops, however. I tried to pick an ability that strengthened the unit while fitting the flavor of the text and picture. Pegasus are pretty =).

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

Clearly there is a difference of opinion here http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

But I have to say that I tend to agree that GE Arco is underpowered. Why don't the people who support GE Arco as a viable theme just list out thier strategy. early, mid, late game, etc. Be specific and if it looks good on paper and works in some test games then the subject can be laid to rest....

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

While I'm not an expert on Golden Era, and I know the main subject are wind riders, I think you could have taken a better approach to myrmidons. Myrmidons are supposed to be soldiers who always follow their superior's orders (I don't know if that definition evolved in time or was a trait that the classic mythological myrmidons had). I think they should be given 50 morale to make them powerful tanks. I think a strategy would be to have myrmidon stand in front of the battle with attack closest, while chariots in the back hold and attack. The myrmidon fight enemy infantry to a standstill, since they are powerful defensively that way and still have crap attacks. When the chariots move out, they get to make their attack before the enemy could respond, since this is a turnbased game and they've already wasted a round of swings on your rock hard myrmidon.

On the issue of Wind Riders, we musn't forget that they can fly AND have a lance. Doesn't that make them similar to a nuclear warhead against spell dependent SC's?

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Most SC's are erthreal or wear a robe of erthrealness, so it's not as effective as it would first seem. But yes, they still pretty good in that role.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree somewhat with your logic here. My concept of a myrmidon is an elite, skilled, brave warrior... who unfortunately has a crappy sword and antique armor. I gave them a fairly significant morale boost as it is. I think the developers want to reserve ultra-high morale for mindless units such as undead... and berserkers. I had toyed with giving the myrmidons a berserker flag, but didn't feel it was either needed or appropriate to the theme.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">IIRC, the Myrmidons in Greek myth were a Groups of soldiers who were turned into humans from ants (hence the "Myr" prefix). This would explain their extremely good morale and discipline.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">An increase in morale would be good, but 50 is far too high. That is Mindless level, IIRC. I can't recall any normal troops that have morale higher than 15. Giving them a 14 or 15 morale I think would be just as good as 50, and be believable.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't use Chariots, so I don't know how to evaluate this.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not particularly. It does make them extremely powerful against troops in general, though. When you consider they have _3_ attacks, and they fly, a Fire blessing in particular sounds like it would be devastating. IME, they are, if deployed in enough numbers (say, 10+). You could use a Moloch with your starting troops to take out provinces until they come on-line. It sounds like a beginning strategy to me.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

If you gave them 50 morale, they would also dissolve when they lost their commander.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As I've thought about it more (as work grinds on) I have come up with the conclusion that Wind Riders would benefit from:

Round Shield -> Kite Shield (+1 Prot, +1 Def, Harder to nail with Missile Weapons)
Hit Points 13 -> 15 (Based on Knights)
Strength 11 -> 12 (Again Based on Knights)

This, IMO makes them more in line with the rest of the units (Knights Mostly). Would I buy them now? Probably not. But they are slightly more survivable.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I just don't want it to turn into the 'Vanheim - Arco' which is what it feels like if you gave the Wind Lord 2A. I don't actually feel like the Wind Lord needs to be any more 'magical'. Maybe the Icarian Commander should have 2 Earth?

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I understand the concept of taking baby steps in a mod, and not completely changing the way the theme plays... but I wasn't really going for slightly more survivable. I'd really like to bring the wind riders up to their comparably costed peers (Neifel Giant, Black hunter). I like the kite shield idea, but it's a little like giving the myrmidions broad swords. Is it play balanced? Probably. But there weren't broad swords back in ancient greece, and things like that are important to the developers. We've seen lots of examples where play balance was sacrificed for cosmetic or accuracy reasons. I'd like to keep the weaponry and armor as is, and look at other ways to improve the units.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Aside from the similarities to drotts, there's also a very important balancing concern. In the game I've been running all day, I've pretty well stopped making any units aside from Wind Lords. They are everywhere, with flying and cloud trapeeze. They don't seem to die when given even the simplest gear (I gave most of them luck pendant and barkskin amulet). Even at 400 gold, it's probably too powerful a unit to include in the mod, which is too bad as I've become quite fond of them. The issue of the synergy between a recruitable SC and the power of the priestess is also a little troubling.

What would you think of giving them both air and earth level 1? Obviously this allows both ironskin and mirror image, but not mistform and cloud trapeeze. It's similar, but different than Drotts and Tuathas.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well you would have to raise his cost considerably, as he'd be a pretty solid little SC in his own right (summon earthpower/ironskin/attack rear). There is also the possibility of modding either the Skeptic or Engineer. Giving engineers EEE would really open up the construction summons, and you'd have a lot easier access to mechanical men and the like. Of course you could argue that this too is too Vanheimish I guess. It would also solve the very annoying problem of engineers always being active when you use the (N)ext commander hotkey.

There's definately a lot you can do with the skeptic and engineer within the bounds of the mod. Both look reasonably mage-like, and changing the name and stats is trivial. Unfortunately we're never going to get more than 2 people to agree on what such hypothetical mage should look like, but I'm open to suggestions.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You can't compare them to Niefel Giants, even though they are comparable costwise. Why? Because Giants and Niefelhiem in particular are built that way and they need the survivability of the Niefel Giant (Even though they are not build very frequently). Black Hunters run into a different issue. If they didn't have Sacred Black Spiders when they died, they wouldn't be in the same class as 'cost-effectiveness'. And neither Niefels nor Black Spiders can fly, thus the flying unit has to be weaker because of the huge advantage of flying both tactically and strategically.

If you don't like changing the weaponry, then you can just modify the base stats. This isn't going to help against missiles, but maybe that is okay

HP 13 > 15
Defense 14 (base) > 15 (Total Defense 17)
Strength 11 > 12
Cost 125 > 115 Gold

Now. Those again are minor changes. But lets see the impact as the game progresses:

Protection (the spell) = 23 Prot
5 Stars Exp = 22 Defense (nothing to sneeze at)

Now they may be worth it, if equipped with a decent blessing. And at least some small form of Air is probabaly key for initial expansion.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is exactly why you wouldn't want to. Imagine having Neifel Jarls with Arco? Not pretty, which is exactly what you are promoting here.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Quite honestly I wouldn't want to kill diversity so very much. Just give the exact changes that I gave to the normal Wind Lord to the commander and he'd still be fine. Having magic casting power on a mounted unit is great, but I don't think it should be given to flying mounted commanders.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The more I thought about it, the less I liked it. What I ended up thinking would be good for Icarian's (and commanders) is giving them a Javelin. Suddenly you have a Air mobile missile squad. It makes their quick strike capability enough that you would consider using them for their fragility (also gives them time to soften up their opponents before they get slaughtered).

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you could unrestrict the philosopher from the capital they would be fine. And have the engineer given either a Forge bonus (Cruel fate, no magic but can forge well. Hello Forge of the Ancients) and perhaps a Bonus to Alchemy akin to an Alchemist.

It wouldn't make the Skeptic any more attractive, but I think he's fine as he is, even with crappy stealth.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

Shedu was dramatically increased. I'd like to read your comments on it too. The ones about Golden Age were a nice read, but I can't comment them. I'm not experienced enough to see how good a unit is without testing it in battle first.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

I know myrmidon are just (the "just" part, more or less) ant people, but I think they're also supposed to be the ultimate soldiers in terms of discipline. I mean, they're crazy, you tell one of them to fight the whole Abysian army, and he'll be out there. You tell on to jump, he asks you how high, what angle, and whether or not to take wind resistance into account.

I thought it could be something unique about myrmidon, to set them apart from all the other elite, slow infantry.

Just a thought.

"myrmidon A faithful follower who carries out orders without question." - Dictionary.com

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well the main limitation of the Shedu remains... that you only get head and 2 misc slots. In order to make him into a viable SC choice you have to take 5 more levels of astral (to combat magic deul), then at least level 3 earth. He can't use any lifedrain weapons, and as a trampler they aren't too useful anyway. He'll never be able to wear boots of quickness or jade armor, so if you want him hasted you need to pay 80 design points for water 1. He's never going to be a world-class SC, so increasing his combat statistics really only enhance his value as an early-game trampling expander.

The armor bonus is redundant with stoneskin, which is available early, and castable with his base chassis. The defense value is definately big, as is boosting his domain to the highest level. However, I doubt these abilities offset the drawbacks of less equipment slots.

In comparison, the Virtue...

- Has the same path cost, and costs 75 points less.
- She (now) has the same dominion, as well as two excellent abilities (lightning resistance/Awe 4!!).
- She only has level 2 air, rather than two paths, but this since he's 75 points cheaper on an 80-point chassis, getting a second path (of your choice mind you) costs you only 5 points more than what you would have to pay for a Shedu.
- She has a full compliment of equipment slots, and comes standard with a nice flambeau

On the flip side the Shedu is a beast at 230 hit points. However, I think you would find him to be limited as a lategame combat SC... however I think he would do quite well as a caster SC, similar to a monolith. When you compare him to other (non crappy) national pretenders, I think he's still strictly second-tier. The Nataraja is clearly superior (and available to Arcoscophale). The Allfather (at the same cost mind you) is clearly superior. The Carrion Dragon (50 points), is in another class. Now he may be comparable to other national choices such as the Jade Emperor or Mother of Tuathas, two similarily priced national pretenders.

However, by maintaining his 80-point paths and limited item slot compliment, it's almost certian that he'll never completely excel at either fighting or casting. At this point he'll make a good expansion aid for the first few turns, then probably retire to the library to make golems... showing up to cast a few big spells in the more important battles. I actually considered lowering his price (to 50), or his path cost (to 40) in addition to raising his combat values. Limiting his item slots has a crippling effect on his overall usefulness... given these severe restrictions on usable items, he has to be great in other areas. Maybe filling the "early trampler, lategame golem maker" niche will be enough... but somehow I doubt it =).

I'm open to suggestions on how to make him somewhat on par with the better avatars available to Arcoscephale... namely the Virtue, Nataraja, Lady of Fortune, Prince of Death, and Ghost King. Since Arcoscephale has access to all of the non-unique avatars that I consider in the top tier... you have to make the Shedu one of the best pretender gods in the game, or else regardless of his strength he's not going to be used since Arcoscephale has such diverse choices in this area. How to accomplish that while maintaining the general idea Illwinter had for the Shedu (trampling flier, limited magic, no item slots), is the question. He was already the highest hit point, non immobile pretender in the game (tied with the kraken, which was aquatic and of course dosen't fly). Even as a flying, durable, trampling chassis with magical paths in both astral and earth, he saw limited or no use. This speaks volumes about the power of items in this game.

[ June 18, 2004, 13:24: Message edited by: Blitz ]

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

Seems to me that there are some nations and units and tactics that are harder to learn to take advantage of than others, but that once they're learned, they are just as good, or better, compared to the easy and obvious nations/units/tactics.

Myrmidons don't look bad to me at all. They look quite good, really, as slow well-armored heavy infantry with not so heavy weapons.

Those look like the most durable chariots I've ever seen. Most chariots are very fragile, but are good for inducing panic in the rear. Most chariots aren't designed to be shock troops, although as was pointed out, with buffs, GE chariots could be quite strong.

The flying warriors are probably like most flying units - easy to get killed, but deadly if used in sufficient numbers and timed properly.

Yes, the Shedu can fatigue out and be swarmed to death, and becomes weaker in comparison to late game units. And the astral is a two-sided ability due to magic duels. I'd say it's a dang good thing those weaknesses are there, however! Remember what I said about numbers being important to rear-flyers? Try combining a flying shedu with a whole bunch of flying troops set to guard commander... suddenly it's much much much harder to overwhelm the shedu or calmly deal with the fliers. Try to strike the shedu before it buffs up with astral and other spells? Good luck with a bunch of fliers guarding him while he does so!

Meanwhile, the research bonus, the mages, the skeptics, the healers, etc., are also great things that can really help out when used well.

If there are several players who haven't figured out how to use something effectively, by all means try mods to make them better. But with players who know how to use the old Versions, they may end up being overpowered, and after the players who didn't know, get some experience, they may start to learn the subtler tricks too.

It's at that point that the mod changes to remove things that got the units killed when they were used bluntly, may end up with units that have too few weaknesses when used skillfully.

I don't claim to have figured everything out, or to have much GE Arco experience or anything. I have done a bit with fliers though and have seen them be extremely powerful or extremely weak, hinging mostly on numbers and timing. When I see people saying they think tough fliers are too weak, I tend to think they probably saw them strike with too few and at the wrong time or against the wrong target. Fliers who can do well even when sent in low numbers against strong foes at the wrong time, seem like they could be too strong.

PvK

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

Without geting deeper into the arguments, I would like to say that I agree with Blitz's assesment that GE in general is weaker than the standart Arco in cometitive MP. A pity, because I think this is one of the most interesing national themes in priciple. Maybe it'll get some love from devs in the future, as Blood of humans and other themes got in the past.

[ June 19, 2004, 01:46: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And as Scott rightly pointed out, they're half-ant half-man. Thus formerly mindless beings that were given a brain. An interesting way to simulate this would be to give them 30 morale.

And, since ants come with some natural protection, probably raise the Myrmidons' base prot high enough to give them the natural equivalent to a 'full leather' or 'full ring mail' armor - that should be around ~10 I guess.

That should be enough to make them a very distinctive unit on their own. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

Slightly OT:
In Greek myth, Myrmidons (from Greek myrmex = ant) were the people of Aiacos, father of Pelleus and grandfather of Achilles. Aiacos was one of Zeus' favorite sons, and he asked his father to give him a people that are as dilligent as the ants he saw climbing on the tree nearby, so Zeus turned those ants into men. They are not halfmen, just men who are attributed the qualities of ants (dilligence, bravery, unity, etc.).

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yep, I know the story - my house is filled with essays on mythologies from all around the world from cellar to roof! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I didn't meant halfmen in the sense that minotaurs are half-bull half-man in their physical shape. Just that, as former ants that were turned into men, they might share attributes from both species.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

nit picky http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

If that bothers you, you're probably playing a wrong game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'll try not to bristle at being painted as a novice Arcoscophile player =). Arcoscophile is my race of choice, and I've played both it and golden era extensively. While players such as Zen have rightly pointed out that the mystic is a very good support mage, that fact does not override the fact that the golden era units are far inferior to the standard arcoscophile army.

No one is saying that Golden Era is unplayable. What most people will agree with is that the units are, when taken as a whole, inferior to the vannila troops, and therefore there is little incentive to use the theme, save for personal interest. If indeed the idea is for players to use less swords and more sorcery, then why take away the astrologer? With the astrologer goes the little blood and death magic that arcoscophile had. That may seem insignificant at first, but having no access to death magic at all really sucks. The earth summons are strictly second-tier to blood and death, and mystics aren't exactly the most efficient mages to use for elemental summons anyway. Don't forget that you are going to need a serious combat pretender to make up for your early military weaknesses.

The wind riders are devestating in numbers, but the fact is that they are extremely expensive. Yes, a force of 20 will destroy any back row, but that's 2500 gold! Surely there are better ways to spend 2500 gold than on 20 fragile fliers.

What I believe the awe ability does is enable players to use wind riders in smaller numbers. Massed wind riders is a losing strategy, even with a strong bless effect and awe. The awe ability reduces the attrition rate of wind riders against both independands and meleeing archers. Having tested the mod for about a day, I've decided I really like the results thus far. I wasn't as pleased with the "improved" wind lord. Most of the points Zen made were correct. He's basicly a flying Vanadrott, which made him far more effective than 3-4 regular riders. I'll probably restore his cost and remove the air magic in the final Version of the mod.

[ June 19, 2004, 23:17: Message edited by: Blitz ]

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

I don't question your Arco experience. How about your Ulm and massed flier experience? Having played a lot of Ulm and a fair amount (but very successful) with fliers, I see two bits of potential:

1) The Myrmidons compare well to Ulm heavy infantry. Shielded, very high prot. They are more expensive than Ulm HI, but they are also elite and have an excellent morale (Ulm morale is bad). In sufficient numbers, they should give a very solid center (which IME harmonizes with flying into the enemy rear). Comparing to Ulm, you've got different but similarly good HI, without the low morale and weak magic of Ulm. Does Ulm look impossibly weak to you?

2) The Icarids do look weak, but the blessed Wind Riders, Wind Lord, and Ircarid Champion (with items), ESPECIALLY combined with a Shedu (!), could I think be made into a nearly unstoppable stomp rear force. They just need enough critical mass to overwhelm. Meanwhile, you have a sold force of heavy infantry to hit them from the other side. I don't think that needs much improvement, but rather, mass and ... timing. Probably try to time the fliers to hit the rear shortly after the Myrmidons engage the main battle line. In my experience, you can provide mass to your strong fliers with weaker fliers - which I would expect to be nicely filled by the ordinary Icarids - they are the "cannon fodder" of the flying elite. Expect to lose a few, but they should be a force multiplier by keeping your elite fliers from getting overwhelmed even if they are flying into a large enemy force.

If the fliers become so strong that they can "survive" even when facing overwhelming numbers, then they may be entirely unstoppable when used in a strong combined force. Especially if you throw a Shedu into the mix as well.

PvK

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The nerfect VQ has somewhat diminished my liking for BF ulm, and the other two themes don't appeal to me... So I wouldn't consider myself an Ulm expert by any stretch of the imagination. But I love fliers. I use Vanheim almost exclusively in MP these days, due to their amazing combination of Einheres, Valkries, Vans, combat magic, the best pretender god available, and the second best recruitable SC's (I'd rank the recuperating, regenerating, elemental fortituded, cloud trapeezing, mistformed Tuatha #1).


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Unfortunately you are missing one very important point. The Myrmidons are equipped with a short sword. Damage 5, length 1, attack 0, defense 0. It's a good thing they have better than average morale, because even broadsword infantry get a riptose chance. This, combined with a massive 8 encumbrance makes their very good basic stats decieving. Combine that with their higher cost in both resources (35 under sloth) and coin, and this is not a comprable unit to Ulm in real-world terms. And Ulm isn't exactly the state of the art in HI anyway. But the most limiting factor is of course their excessive resource cost. They require more resources than any human HI in the game, save the Zweihander.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is a good point. A mixed squad of icarids and wind riders is indeed better than one of riders alone, although the attrition rate is very poor. I continualy bring up the comparison with Vanheim, which I feel is appropriate as they both feature fliers. Even forgetting Vanheim's obvious advantages in cavalry and infantry, the valkrie is clearly superior to the GE fliers. It's cheaper, has glamour, and is also sacred.

A note about bless effects with GE. Taking a strong blessing is more difficult with GE, given their military weakness in the early game. A combat pretender is nearly essential, even moreso when you consider that GE's bless troops take much longer than most to come Online. Your 2-3 blessed fliers won't make a lick of difference when those 30 BF Ulm rangers show up with their POD and Ulmish infantry. Bless effects also restrict your ability to compensate for GE's weak nature and nonexistant blood/death magics. A pretender can only do so much, and taking a strong bless effect for a few indisputably overcosted fliers is a bad idea.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I can't imagine a scenario where a Shedu combined with blessed wind riders could be anywhere near cost efficient. The Shedu is a 125-point pretender with poor bless options, limited item slots, a severe fatigue problem, a vulnerability to astral mages that must be overcome, and no inherant resistances or useful combat abilities. For a nation like Arcoscephale, with a wide range of combat pretenders... both flying and non flying... he's quite possibly the most useless unit in the game.

[ June 20, 2004, 19:59: Message edited by: Blitz ]

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

Shortsword is 5 0 1 1 (not 5 0 0 1), Broadsword is 6 0 1 2, and Ulm hammer is 7 0 -1 1. Myrmidons are ST 11 for +1 damage compared to most troops. Compared to broadsword, it's just -1 length. Compared to Ulm hammer, it's -1 damage but +2 defense. As you say, their morale means they are not likely to fail to engage targets with longer weapons. Makes them as good, or with their elite skills and morale, better, on a one for one basis. In a group, this means an advatange, because combat in a battle line is 1:1. The resource cost limits their numbers (they aren't actually the highest cost though - Ulm has a 37), but they are better per man than Ulm HI anyway. The encumbrance does mean they will wear out after prolonged fighting, but Ulm has the same problem (worse for the plate/shield troops) and does extremely well as long as they have enough men. Here it provides a limitation that makes sense. They will do very well at first and then wear down after a while, but by that time in what must be a large battle, perhaps other forces have joined in (such as a flying force).

I would say bless GE, like practically all bless strategies, is an option. The Wind Riders and Wind Lord can be very effective even without a blessing.

GE's Mystic is _2S_3?_ ! Seems to me you are spoiled by Arco's great magic, if you call this "nonexistant blood/death". Still seems to me like you are likely looking at GE as an alternative to standard Arco, without appreciating the comparison to Ulm and nations with flying strike forces (who generally do not have strong HI at all). Coming from a perspective of someone who has played a bunch of Ulm and Mictlan and some Vanheim and Arco), I see good HI (maybe not quite as good as Ulm), very good magic (maybe not quite as good as standard Arco), and good fliers (maybe not quite as good as Vanheim or Devils or Caelum(?)), but all combined in one, plus other interesting goodies. That is, comparing to other nations and styles I have played a lot, I see at least five great strengths (Magic, Research, Fliers, HI, Healing) which may not be quite as good as in specialist nations (Normal Arco magic, Caelum/demon Fliers, Ulm HI), but are combined all in one nation, and most can be synergistic with each other, as well as providing variety (I know what to expect from the others - not so much from GE Arco). Looks excellent to me, though not as well suited to following just one style of play that may be better in one of the others.

PvK

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As I just wrote, blessing is optional. But Shedu's Earth and Astral are both reasonable blessings. Every point of Earth magic will give your Shedu +1 DR, so maybe consider a 9 Earth blessing, giving the Shedu 16 base protection, your blessed troops (and Priestesses) +4 protection and +4 reinvigoration. 8 + Earth protection and 230 base hit points counts as pretty formidable "resistances" to almost everything. The Astral need is definitely there, though. Trampling and 30-damage hoof are not bad. Yes he often gets killed if sent against a group all alone. Combined with a flying force that is formidable by itself, though, it's two deadly forces that go great together. He won'd get swarmed while there are enough fliers swarming around him with Guard Commander orders. Again, adding multiple fliers with different strengths and weaknesses together, can let them cover for each others' weaknesses. I say all this not to assert he's the "best" choice, but to point out that he's far from weak or "most useless" (tm, pet peeve).

PvK

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The random picks on the mystic are elemental only, unlike the astrologer which is any kind of magic.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Niefel Jarls are pretty scary, too. Quicknessed, Breath of Wintered, and can forge their own wraith swords or Skullfaces for Soul Vortex.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Unfortunately you are missing one very important point. The Myrmidons are equipped with a short sword. Damage 5, length 1, attack 0, defense 0. It's a good thing they have better than average morale, because even broadsword infantry get a riptose chance. This, combined with a massive 8 encumbrance makes their very good basic stats decieving. Combine that with their higher cost in both resources (35 under sloth) and coin, and this is not a comprable unit to Ulm in real-world terms. And Ulm isn't exactly the state of the art in HI anyway. But the most limiting factor is of course their excessive resource cost. They require more resources than any human HI in the game, save the Zweihander.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is a good point. A mixed squad of icarids and wind riders is indeed better than one of riders alone, although the attrition rate is very poor. I continualy bring up the comparison with Vanheim, which I feel is appropriate as they both feature fliers. Even forgetting Vanheim's obvious advantages in cavalry and infantry, the valkrie is clearly superior to the GE fliers. It's cheaper, has glamour, and is also sacred.

A note about bless effects with GE. Taking a strong blessing is more difficult with GE, given their military weakness in the early game. A combat pretender is nearly essential, even moreso when you consider that GE's bless troops take much longer than most to come Online. Your 2-3 blessed fliers won't make a lick of difference when those 30 BF Ulm rangers show up with their POD and Ulmish infantry. Bless effects also restrict your ability to compensate for GE's weak nature and nonexistant blood/death magics. A pretender can only do so much, and taking a strong bless effect for a few indisputably overcosted fliers is a bad idea.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I can't imagine a scenario where a Shedu combined with blessed wind riders could be anywhere near cost efficient. The Shedu is a 125-point pretender with poor bless options, limited item slots, a severe fatigue problem, a vulnerability to astral mages that must be overcome, and no inherant resistances or useful combat abilities. For a nation like Arcoscephale, with a wide range of combat pretenders... both flying and non flying... he's quite possibly the most useless unit in the game. [/QB][/quote]

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The mystic's 3 random picks are in the elemental fields. The Astrologer has a true random pick. This does indeed translate into a complete absence of blood and death magic.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A Shedu with level 9E and 4S costs... are you ready for this? 468 points. That's with no castle, no scales. Nothning but a dubious bless effect. Give it up man, the Shedu is horrible, and yes he may well be the most useless unit in the game when you consider Arcoscephale's other choices for a pretender god. This isn't a case where you can say "well slingers are pretty good patrolers haha". No. This unit sucks. It has no redeeming qualities whatsoever. It's overcosted, has no item slots, cannot provide a decent blessing, and isn't anywhere near what the wurm or virtue is as an early expansion aid. He's horrible, and it's almost amusing to see people try to defend him. Sometimes you can make an absolute statement about something. Yes he has the highest hit points of any mobile. He still sucks. Sorry.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, it is an alternative to standard Arcoscephale, isn't it? And let's look at the other nations with fliers shall we? Vanheim has Vans and Einheres. Caelum has the temple guard, which may be capitol-only, but let's not forget mammoths, which are fairly strong on the front lines. These are the only nations with strong recruitable fliers, and both of these have superior ground troops to Arcoscephale. Caelum also has the Seraphs, which are stronger than the mystics, and a stealthy 3-strength flying priest. Vanheim's priests are amazing SC's. Priestesses are very good, but even if you concede the top priest spot to her, it's not like either of Vanheim or Caelum are lacking in the mage or priest areas either.

Myrmidons cannot go toe to toe with either Einheres or temple guards... let alone mammoths. GE has strong fliers, yes... but they are overcosted and do not have comparable ground support to either of the other "flying" nations.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'd probably rank those #3, on the basis that they can't cloud trapeeze, aren't stealthy, and cost more than either of the other two. I believe they do come with a Jotun Longsword though? Maybe the best standard weapon around. If they were WWDDD and could vortex out of the box, they would be crazy.

My top recruitable SC's:

1) Tuatha
2) Hangadrott/Vanjarl/Vanadrott
3) Neifel Jarl
4) Sidhe Lord
5) King of the Deep

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A Shedu pretty much asks to be played as a bless....since it sure as hell isn't any good for anything else: You can't slap on gear to turn into mean wafflestomper at all, due to lack of slottage, and it's not really serviceable as an SC due to his severe and incurable encumberance problems.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You'll be surprised how little this matters when the Shedu has no regenerative ability, and spends the battle passed out on the floor.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If he USED his 30-damage hoof attack, that would be great. He doesn't, because he fancies trampling instead. This vastly bumps his his reinvigoration needs....but he has no slottage to spend on it. If you're really fond of the entire trample-fu, the Fat Momma does a better job of this: Same lousy encumberance, same trample-fu problems, but she has humanoid slottage, is quite tough, AND has regeneration. Also, no astral weakness, and is 50 points cheaper! While her encumberance cannot be considered an asset, at least with humanoid slots, it can be compensated for. The Shedu gets benched fairly early.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is serviceable. I didn't pay 125 points for that, though.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wind Riders are outlandishly expensive in both resources and gold...difficult to afford under Sloth. Also, if everyone is set to guard commander, the entire group routs the moment somebody bites it. And somebody will probably bite it that way. You can partially offset this by towing around a groundpounder team in the back, but then you've shot your flying army in the foot: It's no longer a flying army.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'd have to say that yes, he is definitely weak. Useless, though...well, technically, useless is an absolute term. You don't get more useless, you're just useless. The Shedu manages to avoid being "most useless", though, only by edging out a few even crappier pretender choices, like the "nerfed into oblivion" Sphinx, who is completely overshadowed by otherwise similar and cheaper options like the Oracle or Statue, which can actually still be teleported. The Sphinx, being devoid of teleportation, manages to land the prize here because his physical toughness is meaningless if he can never bring it to bear. Thus, the Sphinx still holds the crown for "crappiest", in my book.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Let's try to make UberShedu shall we?

Here's the BEST Shedu I can manage.

Shedu
SSSSSS EEEE DDDD
Dominion 5

Amulet of Resiliance
Starshine Skullcap
Pendant of Luck

Summon Earthpower, Invulnerability, Astral Shield, Soul Vortex, Erthrealness, attack rear.

Yours for only 466 points!

By comparison:

Ghost King
AA WW EEE DDDD
Dominion 5

Sword of Quickness
Charcoal Shield
Starshine Skullcap
Elemental Armor
Boots of Quickness
Amulet of Spell Resistance
Pendant of Luck

Mirror Image, Soul Vortex, Invulnerability, Breath of Winter, Mistform, attack rear

291 points.

Which would you rather have?

[ June 20, 2004, 21:35: Message edited by: Blitz ]

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

Certainly the GK. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

However, the GK really doesn't play to Arco's strengths, as the priestesses can no longer heal your GK. Plus I'd buy more magic. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You could take SSSSSS in addition and the GK would still be cheaper. Although that gets me thinking...

What if the Shedu had 20-point paths like the GK? Would he be really so bad then? In fact he'd be pretty damn good. He'd still have hella limited slots, but he might just be the king of the caster SC's. High hit points, lots of magic, but with limited slots.

Hrmmmm.

Lemme see (gets out mod tools)

Nooshedu w/ 20 point paths
FF AA WW EEE SSSSS DDD NNN
Dominion 5
Fortress
Order 1
Sloth 1
Misfortune 1

Still damn expensive to make a rainbow out of, but that's a lot better value for a 125 point chassis. He's still limited in the endgame because of no slots, but at least he's a workable rainbow with high hit points and nice magical diversity. He's STILL no ghost king, but I'd use him.

I can't wait for the Posts about how overpowered a 20-point path Shedu is. Bring it on.

[ June 20, 2004, 21:59: Message edited by: Blitz ]

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Of course it has redeeming qualities. It has earthpower, invulnerability, luck, body ethereal, and astral shield. It's also a flying trampler, which allows it to smash normal armies.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No infantry can go toe to toe with mammoths and expect to not take severe losses. There are virtually no infantry that can fight very well against Einheres, and temple guards are even more resource limited than Myrmidons.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You wasted a huge number of points on the death magic, since it is totally unnecessary for fatigue purposes.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I can't tell you the answer to that without knowing the parameters of the game.