Winning w/o a SC???
 

Hello folks, I've been browsing these forums for about a week now, and I've recently ordered the game. The AAR's have been very informative and the guides have been well written, many thanks from the heart of a new guy!

To get back on topic, I have seen a lot of people talk about their SC's and how they get them/equip them and when they are the most useful in-game.

So this leaves me wondering what other feasible strategies are out there besides using an uber-character???

Are there ways to combat one without having one of your own?

I also have seen many topics on people using Jotunhiem, and I have yet to see one of them lose! What are some strategies on defeating the giants?

My first thoughts on this are to have an army that is more mobile, avoiding the big fat giant armies and cutting off supply lines, hitting weaker areas---guerilla type tactics. Yet if I want to play a Dwarf type race, what are my options when facing an SC and 30 giants rumbling down on me?

Re: Winning w/o a SC???
 

There are ways to counter SCs without having one of your own, though they mostly involve mages.

Petrify, for example, is an excellent spell against SCs, since it always causes paralysis, even if the target makes his MR save (if he doesn't, the effect is death).

In general, anything that does unresistable damage (or causes an unresistable effect/affliction) is good, since SCs tend to have all the resistances pretty well covered.

[ June 22, 2004, 13:38: Message edited by: Teraswaerto ]

Re: Winning w/o a SC???
 

I can't say that I've noticed that Jotunheim is so special. Sure, giants are big and tough. But they're also pretty expensive. And there are plenty of ways to kill them, ranging from magic to just swaming them with cheap infantry.

As for winning without a SC, Teraswaerto covered the basics. But I would add that I don't see why anyone would have to win without a SC, since every magic path has at least 1 or 2 summonable units that can make a plausible SC. So even if you don't start with a SC in the form of youir Pretender, there's no reason you can't get one later.

Re: Winning w/o a SC???
 

I've recently started playing the giants and don't use that many since they have a higher upkeep compared to other units. I do buy the blessed giants since the upkeep is divided by 30 instead of 15 thus making the longterm cost more reasonable.
One of the blessed commanders has a cost of 60 gold thus the upkeep is only 2 gold plus the option to place items on him is available. I believe one of the blessed commanders also has a cost of 50 gold yet the other commander looks like a better deal.

[ June 22, 2004, 14:43: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Winning w/o a SC???
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Mostly? Can you elaborate a bit for me?

Re: Winning w/o a SC???
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Mostly? Can you elaborate a bit for me? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Massed crossbows (or arbalests for Ulm) is one counter that doesn't involve mages, though the spell Wind Guide would make it more effective, as would Flaming Arrows if the target SC isn't 100% fire resistant. Very high protection or air shield will make crossbows uneffective though, and a slowly moving army can have problems catching the SC.

Flying troops can be good against SCs that need to cast spells to make themselves ready for combat, since they strike at the SC before it has a chance to boost itself with magic.

Re: Winning w/o a SC???
 

Thank you for the replies folks! I'm looking forward to leading the army that closest resembles Dwarves into battle this week. I assume that would be Ulm, yes?

I plan on using magic as a tool, rather than a weapon. Enhancing my troops and spreading fear in my enemies rather than using it for direct damage. Magical weapons, armors, and even warriors to fight for thier Mountain King.

These are my thoughts before having played the game, is there any insight you would give towards my impatient ramblings?

Re: Winning w/o a SC???
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Giants are not without their weaknesses: They eat like pigs. They're flammable and conduct electricity. They have a weakness against point-blank annihilation. They're also quite cowardly, and will often run without even taking a single loss unless there's a priest along to berate them for their cowardice.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Might I suggest inviting them in for a nice game of football?

Ulm is not of any help whatsoever in this area. Their troops move awful, ponderous paces....the giants are faster than you, both on and off the field! Which means if you don't win the battle, you're looking at a near total wipeout as they run you down like roadkill. Ulmish infantry rarely survives a rout.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ulm definitely fits the bill you're looking for. Unfortunately, Ulm happens to be somewhat weak against Jotunheim, as giants are strong enough to crush you in your heavy armor like a coke can.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you're playing single player, you don't need to worry about any of this. The AI isn't focussed or sharp enough to actually plan to assemble any kind of crushing offensive beyond the dogpile manuever.

Re: Winning w/o a SC???
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you play an astral nation, Paralyze/Soul Slay/Enslave Mind have always worked really well for me (as far as giants are concerned).

Shock units are within the normal range of MR, only the top units, like Niefel Jarls, have a tough MR but even that isn't really a problem since a single success takes out a pretty large unit (or even SC) and communion/starshine cap/spell focus/Banner of the Northern Star(all astral items) will let you crack some pretty tough MR.

- Kel

Re: Winning w/o a SC???
 

I've fought Jotuns as Ulm a few times. Best to use masses of cannon fodder against them, rather than get your best troops and their expensive armor smashed. Missile weapons and large quantities of armor-optional troops seem to do the trick.

PvK

Re: Winning w/o a SC???
 

Thanks for the insight, Norfleet, I was hoping you would reply after reading your other Posts here.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Exactly what I am anticipating! So what is the best tactic against the big brutes? I'm hoping massed missle fire will have *some* effect on the oafs. Any thoughts on Ulm vs. Jotun?

Re: Winning w/o a SC???
 

If you're talking abut SP, you'll have little to worry about from Jotuns usually. They require a lot of supplies, and the AI is somewhat lacking in handling that. If you play a decent size map, chances are that most of them apart from those guarding the capital are going to be diseased by the time you reach them.

Other than that, try to swarm them with superior numbers. They'll win a 1 on 1 fights against most troops, but if you have superior numbers it means that you'll be able to get many attacks per single giant in a round, and their defense drops down with each subsequent attack. Since only one giant can fit into a square, you'll get something like 3 attacks per his one (3 humans fit in the square), and some of those attacks will land. Their size also means that missiles are more likely to hit them if they hit the square they're in. In other words, they hit hard, but are also relatively easy to hit. This is of course just a basic strategy without any magic or anything sophisticated, but it still works nevertheless.

Re: Winning w/o a SC???
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Don't get too eager to hear from me. I'm as likely to say something snarky as I am to actually say anything helpful. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you mass crossbows, that'll definitely take some of the wind out of their sails, but they move fast, and crossbows fire slowly. You'll need something to slow them down, something that won't be crushed like a tin can too quickly....or something expendable, because many of them are going to likely get shot in the back by your own crossbows.

[ June 22, 2004, 21:46: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Winning w/o a SC???
 

From the way you describe them, HalfAxe, with words like "big" and "fat" and "oaf", it sounds like you consider them slow. But Jotun are actually very fast for infantry units. Long legs means long strides.

I think their main weakness lies in attack Ratings, which, even for the elite Jotun Hirdmen, are only 10-12. Cavalry, which tend to have really good Def skills, like Royal Guard, Centaur Warriors, Knights, Black Knights (I have doubts about Knights of Ulm, whatever you call 'em. Don't play Ulm much), Knights of Avalon and Van often pose a problem for my ice giants.

Another very good way of combatting giants, as long as they're not using a Woodsman or Huskarl dependant army, is to bring out the heaviest weapons available and the burliest men. I'm not a big fan of ranged combat, but if you absolutely want it, Crossbows and Arbalests can punch through the giants' Chain Mail Hauberks like pudding if they manage to hit in the first place. I think good anti-giant infantry are

Imperial Footmen with glaives, the infantry of the people! Celestial Soldiers and Demons of Heavenly Rivers work well too, I mean, what CAN'T they do?

Machaka Hoplites, but that's kind of a stretch

Elemental demons, all nice and strong if I remember right. The Devil gets the added bonus of having a fork. They'll provide all the punch you need for Abysia and Mictlan.

Slave/Elite Warriors, once again, forks

R'lyeh slave... I dunno, were they Guardians? Forks, but consider Lobo with Illithids. The Lobo policy of quantity vs. quality does well against Jotunheim as tanks while Illithids can bLast away

I've never actually used Barbarians or Lizard Warriors, but I guess they'll do in a pinch.

Marignon Halberdiers and Swordsmen, (see Celestial Soldiers and Demon of Heavenly Rivers)

Maybe Skinshifters, I've never been in a Van vs Jotun situation. I'm sure Einheres would get a strength bonus once they berserk, but they probably won't survive the first hit by a giant.

I don't think Pythium has any reliable response to Jotunheim. Their best bet would probably be the Hydra.

Atlantian War Shamblers are good, theoretically, but I haven't used them much.

Ulm has infantry with two handed weapons, which generally pack a very satisfying punch. Black Woods Rangers would probably work well too, their high prec is good news, as are their axes instead of short swords in close combat.

I don't play Caelum much, but with them, I would probably depend on the Mammoth, same with Arcosephalean elephants.

With Man, I would place my bet on Wardens, but you're probably better off taking advantage of the giants' poor attack skill and use Knights/Knights of Avalon.

Ermor... relax, the giants'll have a hard time getting anywhere near you with your death domain. Now go grab some ice cream or some undead wenches.

With Pangaea, even though minotaurs carry a big axe, you don't want them anywhere near giants. Better to take advantage of the giants' poor attack skill (deja vu) and use Centaur Warriors.

Am I forgetting any nation?

Edit: For the SC question, that's the current imbalance, or shall I say "cheese" in this game. Someone's already said fliers, and I find that they work the best. Even fielding your own SC is risky, at best.

Edit2: In response to the first post. Dwarves use guerilla tactics? Maybe I'm thinking of different dwarves, or you're thinking of the normal fantasy elf. But aside from that, guerilla tactics are horrible. Whenever you retreat, even on purpose, your units end up scattered in all the neighboring provinces, or die when they retreat into an enemy one.

Edit3: God bless Norfleet... he'll need it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ June 23, 2004, 06:24: Message edited by: HotNifeThruButr ]

Re: Winning w/o a SC???
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, gorilla tactics differ greatly from guerrilla tactics. Gorilla tactics involve beating your chest, screaming, and flinging doody in an attempt to intimidate your foes, whereas guerrilla tactics involve hit and run actions. I could see dwarves perhaps attempting to use gorilla tactics.

[ June 23, 2004, 06:06: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Winning w/o a SC???
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You don't like the principe? *sniff* but they are so cute.

Re: Winning w/o a SC???
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I was not describing their in-game fighting prowess at all, HotNife, I was merely describing giants in general. My apologies for the confusion.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Guerilla tactics don't necessarily mean retreating, HotNife. If you want to "sum up" the tactic in a few sentences, which I find very difficult to do, I would say something like this:

Guerilla tactics are about conciously not meeting the enemy head on. You know you would lose the battle that way, so you choose not to fight in this fashion.

I'll go around your main armies, run through your territory while you're trying to get in mine, surround you with smaller Groups to cut off your supply, etc.

The point is not to meet your big, strong, oafy(did I just say "oafy"? yikes lol), giants face to face, where I would promptly get stomped. I'll prick your supplies and threaten your rear until you attempt to do something about it.

In addition, my copy of the game isn't even here yet, I'm just throwing out options and seeing if they would hold any weight before I start the game. Most of you have been very helpful, and I'm very excited at the possibilities for this title.

Thanks again for the insight!

[ June 23, 2004, 14:30: Message edited by: Torlin HalfAxe ]

Re: Winning w/o a SC???
 

My thinking (and my interpretation of my experience) is nearly the opposite from HotNifeThruButr's suggested good troops against Jotun giants.

Giants with giant weapons tend to kill human-sized targets when they hit them. Even men in Ulmish armor with shields. Even mounted knights and heroes with several typical magic items. Once they get hit, they tend to die. Armor can actually be a disadvantage, because it reduces defense, making it more likely to get hit and killed.

Also, heavy armor is expensive in resources. You're wasting a lot of build time (resources) by sending it to get squashed by giants. Giants like armored targets, since they are easier to hit, not much harder to kill with one hit, and are crunchy. Meanwhile, they are more valuable for use against many other types, and take a long time to build, so they shouldn't be used, or at least, not overly used.

Better to use troops with higher defense and as little cost and utility to you in other situations, as possible. Ideal would be something like masses of Hoburg Acrobats, jumping around yelling, "Hahoo! Hahoo! Can't hit me!" They will get hit anyway, but the point is to tire them out and keep them away from the units that are attacking the giants (ranged, mages, and/or a light mix of some well-armed melee units)

I found Tribals (8 gold, 2 resources) worked well. Yes they died a lot, but I didn't really want them alive and on the payroll anyway. I wanted them to keep the Jotuns busy long enough for others to kill them.

PvK

Re: Winning w/o a SC???
 

To PvK: you might have misinterpreted my strategy.

1. Knights, although they're heavily armored, also have high defense skills, around 16-20 if I remember right. They can consistently dodge the Jotuns' attacks while their own blows are almost guaranteed to hit. Knights are also stronger than normal men, and their lances are a big bonus.

2. When I say men with heavy weapons are good, I don't mean heavy weapons AND ARMOR. If barbarians didn't have such crap morale, they'd be perfect against Jotunheim, whereas the expensive Zweihander, while also having a huge weapon, would suck, because you can field less of them and they won't survive any longer.

To Torlin: Guerilla does mean retreating, in this game. You can only tell them to retreat, stand and fight, or fire then retreat. Either way, they either fight and die or run away. It's not an RTS, you don't have direct command over anyone. Also, there are no supply lines in this game to cut off. The only benefit you get from surrounding someone totally is that they die when they retreat. All Jotun units have two strategic move, which is huge for anyone with 13+ protection from armor. They can and will catch any of your guerillas, probably except if you were Caelum, but I don't play the birds a lot.

To Huzurdaddi: Satyr are cuter http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Edit: Think "Zergling" instead of "Zealot"

[ June 23, 2004, 21:35: Message edited by: HotNifeThruButr ]

Re: Winning w/o a SC???
 

HotNifeThruButr, I agree with your latest post, except that knights are expensive and so often not a necessary risk. They can defeat giants, but still tend to get killed when they are hit by giants, so it's better if you can avoid that. I would try to engage first with cannon fodder, and follow up with the knights, but the times when I did use knights, I ended up regretting I had, because some of them got hit and died, while the battles I fought without them, I still won if I had enough cannon fodder and something safer to hit the giants with.

In your previous post, though, I wouldn't use your unit choices:

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What Celestial summons can't do is be replaced easily if they get hit by too many giant weapons.

I don't think Imperial Footmen are as good a choice as ordinary footmen, because they are more expensive and take more resources for their armor, which mainly just slows them down from getting out of the way of that GIANT AXE - oh no!!! Ordinary glaive footmen might be a reasonable choice, though.

Quote:

Machaka Hoplites, but that's kind of a stretch

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Exactly my point. Like other good HI, these are great against many units but are juicy/crunchy targets for giants. The Machakan spear and bow fodder, on the other hand, will keep the giants about as busy as the hoplites will, but can be churned out in massive numbers quite quickly, and you actually hope they'll mostly die off by the time your giant problem is over, because against many other types, they aren't worth their keep.

Quote:

Elemental demons, all nice and strong if I remember right. The Devil gets the added bonus of having a fork. They'll provide all the punch you need for Abysia and Mictlan.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Meeting force with force. Might be effective, but perhaps not efficient, since they can hire giants probably more easily than you can summon these guys. And even if you can match their giants with demons, I'd expect it would be better to take care of them mainly with cheap-o units, and use those demons against something else.
As Mictlan, again I'd tend to use the chaff light units and slaves to keep the giants busy and overwhelmed by numbers, while picking them off with magic, indy archers, etc.

Quote:

... I've never actually used Barbarians or Lizard Warriors, but I guess they'll do in a pinch.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, though I would use a mixture of 1/3 to 1/5 of these costly heavy-hitters, and the rest the cheapest available chaff.

Quote:

Marignon Halberdiers and Swordsmen, (see Celestial Soldiers and Demon of Heavenly Rivers)

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm not very familiar with those, but they might be ok as the 1/3 to 1/5 heavy hitters amongst the fodder.

Quote:

Maybe Skinshifters, I've never been in a Van vs Jotun situation. I'm sure Einheres would get a strength bonus once they berserk, but they probably won't survive the first hit by a giant.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Expensive and fragile choices. Not worth risking against giants, except maybe some green ones in small numbers amongst many other chaff. Again, I'd pick the cheapest units available.

Quote:

I don't think Pythium has any reliable response to Jotunheim. Their best bet would probably be the Hydra.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Pythium has fodder, I think. There's no real reason to use special national fodder though, if you have indy fodder. Add a castle with Admin to a Tribal province and it can provide enough fodder to keep a lot of giants busy.

Quote:

Atlantian War Shamblers are good, theoretically, but I haven't used them much.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes but not against giants. Expensive and hardy... but only hardy enough to be a juicy target for giant weapons.

Quote:

Ulm has infantry with two handed weapons, which generally pack a very satisfying punch. ...

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They have these, yes, but they come with heavy armor which is useful against troops whose weapons it has an effect on. Big waste to use them against giants, except maybe as the hard-hitting minority. Even still, I'd only send a few green ones in, since there will be casualties.

Quote:

I don't play Caelum much, but with them, I would probably depend on the Mammoth, same with Arcosephalean elephants.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sounds like force-on-force, and though I don't Caelum much either, Arco elephants are expensive. Moreso than Jotun giants by a long shot, and they are probably too big for giants to trample anyway, so I expect they'd be an awful choice. I'd use Peltasts and/or Cardaces.

Quote:

With Man, I would place my bet on Wardens, but you're probably better off taking advantage of the giants' poor attack skill and use Knights/Knights of Avalon.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wardens and other elite armored types are expensive and will get squished. They might be somewhat effective, but won't be efficient to lose, I expect.

Quote:

Ermor... relax, the giants'll have a hard time getting anywhere near you with your death domain. Now go grab some ice cream or some undead wenches.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ya and in theory, hordes of low-HP undead are the perfect thing to deal with giants, as long as they don't have a good thing to deal with your undead.

Quote:

With Pangaea, even though minotaurs carry a big axe, you don't want them anywhere near giants. Better to take advantage of the giants' poor attack skill (deja vu) and use Centaur Warriors.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, again, I think Centaur warriors would be way too expensive to put in the way of giant weapons. I'd use Satyrs and Maenads!

PvK

[ June 23, 2004, 22:51: Message edited by: PvK ]

Re: Winning w/o a SC???
 

Knights are the best option I can think of for Man. Axemen might do the trick, but I don't play Man much.

Normal footies can have glaives? I need to start playing Tien Ch'i again.

My problem with Machaka non-hoplites is that they don't carry a nasty enough weapon. That 3 damage spear isn't likely to scratch a Giant. Maybe spider riders can entangle the giants and then finish them off, but I think they too, use spears, and they're not cheap.

With Demons, you need to remember that they, like most cavalry, have astronomical Def skills, so giants will likely not be able to hit them.

For the Vanheim choices, if axes do 7 damage, then the Huskarl with axes will be a good alternative to Shifters or Einheres. On another though, Einheres are horrible against giants. Once a unit goes berserker, they depend on Prot instead of Def to protect them. Giants have problems with Def, but never with Prot.

I've just fought against a comp Pythium, and learned that Velites have 14 Def. Maybe you could consider them a good national response against Jotun. I like to think of national troops because it's not guaranteed that you'll get the right Indies in the right places to respond to the giant threat.

Atlantis, I had a hard time coming up with anything for our fishy friends. What would you suggest to break through the giants' armor?

With Ulm, what DOESN'T have heavy armor? Seems to me like Jotunheim can kill everything ulm might scrape together.

With the elephants, yes, they can trample giants, but I don't know what Arco and Caelum can use to crack the armor. Arcosephale has an unhealthy obsession with spears while I haven't played Caelum much.

For Pangaea, their centaur warriors have INSANE defense. All satyrs carry spears, but have 11 strength, so they could be a good alternative. I often find Centaur Warriors a good option though. With the Warriors, it really hurts when you get hit, but chances are, you won't get hit at all. Maenads are definitely a plus, but I try to get Order with Pangaea to afford Centaur Warriors, I'd probably change my strategy if it was only me against Jotunheim, but chances are, they'll be more nations.

The main problem I think about, when fighting Jotun is their heavy armor with 30+ hit points. I've been thinking of ways to bypass that armor, instead of the best ways to survive giant attacks. Maybe your way is right, and maybe my way is right, PvK, next game, I'll try throwing tons of crap (gorilla strategy?) at the giants and see how well it does http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

In other words, you're coming up with ways to minimize your own losses while I'm coming up with ways to maximize Jotun losses. A good strategy will be to put the cheapest units available on the front against the giants, then, while they're occupied, more heavily armed soldiers can hit them from the flanks.

Off topic: But Flagellants are the cutest http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Edit: I'm probably biased towards Tien Ch'i summons 'cuz I love 'em so much. Knights have 14 def skill, so don't you dare use them against Jotun.

[ June 24, 2004, 05:28: Message edited by: HotNifeThruButr ]

Re: Winning w/o a SC???
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ctis has 20 gold, 5 resource, sacred, 16 def serpent dancers if you really want a high defense. YMMV with bless strategies.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Arcos is my favorite nation. They have a great defense against Jotuns:
Paralyze / soul slay / enslave.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Keep in mind a heavy nature blessing strategy (not uncommon against the opponents I have played) with the giants might make for a different answer.

- Kel

Re: Winning w/o a SC???
 

Ya, I don't really care if my fodder can easily hurt the giants or not. That's not their job. Their job is to get attacked instead of the units who are hurting the giants. Preferably, those who really hurt the giants are out of range of thrown boulders, and are probably casting spells or firing arrows.

Ulm doesn't have anyone unarmored except mage types. The arbalests aren't a bad choice for the rear ranks. I usually have arbalests in a seperate army from my national Ulm HI anyway. I wouldn't send more than 1/3 Ulmish national troops in the main body against giants. They can sort of do that "nationally" by taking their best fodder indy province and building a fort there, using their usual high productivity on low-resource troops of the cheapest kind, to get a bunch of dummy targets for the Jotuns to try to kill. The Jotuns will tend to be stopped for several turns just trying to hit all the targets, and wearing themselves out trying to hit them all, while whatever else hits the giants.

There are various ways to help make this work when arranging the army on the field. If you do want to use some strong melee units on them, I'd likely send a wave of all-fodder first, followed by a wave of fodder mixed with good troops (mixed spacially - not necessarily in the same squad).

PvK