Winning w/o a SC???

[Torlin HalfAxe]

Hello folks, I've been browsing these forums for about a week now, and I've recently ordered the game. The AAR's have been very informative and the guides have been well written, many thanks from the heart of a new guy!

To get back on topic, I have seen a lot of people talk about their SC's and how they get them/equip them and when they are the most useful in-game.

So this leaves me wondering what other feasible strategies are out there besides using an uber-character???

Are there ways to combat one without having one of your own?

I also have seen many topics on people using Jotunhiem, and I have yet to see one of them lose! What are some strategies on defeating the giants?

My first thoughts on this are to have an army that is more mobile, avoiding the big fat giant armies and cutting off supply lines, hitting weaker areas---guerilla type tactics. Yet if I want to play a Dwarf type race, what are my options when facing an SC and 30 giants rumbling down on me?

[Teraswaerto]

There are ways to counter SCs without having one of your own, though they mostly involve mages.

Petrify, for example, is an excellent spell against SCs, since it always causes paralysis, even if the target makes his MR save (if he doesn't, the effect is death).

In general, anything that does unresistable damage (or causes an unresistable effect/affliction) is good, since SCs tend to have all the resistances pretty well covered.

[ June 22, 2004, 13:38: Message edited by: Teraswaerto ]

[Vynd]

I can't say that I've noticed that Jotunheim is so special. Sure, giants are big and tough. But they're also pretty expensive. And there are plenty of ways to kill them, ranging from magic to just swaming them with cheap infantry.

As for winning without a SC, Teraswaerto covered the basics. But I would add that I don't see why anyone would have to win without a SC, since every magic path has at least 1 or 2 summonable units that can make a plausible SC. So even if you don't start with a SC in the form of youir Pretender, there's no reason you can't get one later.

[NTJedi]

I've recently started playing the giants and don't use that many since they have a higher upkeep compared to other units. I do buy the blessed giants since the upkeep is divided by 30 instead of 15 thus making the longterm cost more reasonable.
One of the blessed commanders has a cost of 60 gold thus the upkeep is only 2 gold plus the option to place items on him is available. I believe one of the blessed commanders also has a cost of 50 gold yet the other commander looks like a better deal.

[ June 22, 2004, 14:43: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

[Torlin HalfAxe]

There are ways to counter SCs without having one of your own, though they mostly involve mages.

Mostly? Can you elaborate a bit for me?

[Teraswaerto]

Originally posted by Torlin HalfAxe:

quote:

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There are ways to counter SCs without having one of your own, though they mostly involve mages.

Mostly? Can you elaborate a bit for me?

---

Massed crossbows (or arbalests for Ulm) is one counter that doesn't involve mages, though the spell Wind Guide would make it more effective, as would Flaming Arrows if the target SC isn't 100% fire resistant. Very high protection or air shield will make crossbows uneffective though, and a slowly moving army can have problems catching the SC.

Flying troops can be good against SCs that need to cast spells to make themselves ready for combat, since they strike at the SC before it has a chance to boost itself with magic.

[Torlin HalfAxe]

Thank you for the replies folks! I'm looking forward to leading the army that closest resembles Dwarves into battle this week. I assume that would be Ulm, yes?

I plan on using magic as a tool, rather than a weapon. Enhancing my troops and spreading fear in my enemies rather than using it for direct damage. Magical weapons, armors, and even warriors to fight for thier Mountain King.

These are my thoughts before having played the game, is there any insight you would give towards my impatient ramblings?

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Torlin HalfAxe:
I also have seen many topics on people using Jotunhiem, and I have yet to see one of them lose! What are some strategies on defeating the giants?

Giants are not without their weaknesses: They eat like pigs. They're flammable and conduct electricity. They have a weakness against point-blank annihilation. They're also quite cowardly, and will often run without even taking a single loss unless there's a priest along to berate them for their cowardice.

My first thoughts on this are to have an army that is more mobile, avoiding the big fat giant armies and cutting off supply lines, hitting weaker areas---guerilla type tactics.Yet if I want to play a Dwarf type race, what are my options when facing an SC and 30 giants rumbling down on me?

Might I suggest inviting them in for a nice game of football?

Ulm is not of any help whatsoever in this area. Their troops move awful, ponderous paces....the giants are faster than you, both on and off the field! Which means if you don't win the battle, you're looking at a near total wipeout as they run you down like roadkill. Ulmish infantry rarely survives a rout.

Originally posted by Torlin HalfAxe:
Thank you for the replies folks! I'm looking forward to leading the army that closest resembles Dwarves into battle this week. I assume that would be Ulm, yes?

I plan on using magic as a tool, rather than a weapon. Enhancing my troops and spreading fear in my enemies rather than using it for direct damage. Magical weapons, armors, and even warriors to fight for thier Mountain King.

Ulm definitely fits the bill you're looking for. Unfortunately, Ulm happens to be somewhat weak against Jotunheim, as giants are strong enough to crush you in your heavy armor like a coke can.

These are my thoughts before having played the game, is there any insight you would give towards my impatient ramblings?

If you're playing single player, you don't need to worry about any of this. The AI isn't focussed or sharp enough to actually plan to assemble any kind of crushing offensive beyond the dogpile manuever.

[Kel]

Originally posted by Torlin HalfAxe:
I also have seen many topics on people using Jotunhiem, and I have yet to see one of them lose! What are some strategies on defeating the giants?

If you play an astral nation, Paralyze/Soul Slay/Enslave Mind have always worked really well for me (as far as giants are concerned).

Shock units are within the normal range of MR, only the top units, like Niefel Jarls, have a tough MR but even that isn't really a problem since a single success takes out a pretty large unit (or even SC) and communion/starshine cap/spell focus/Banner of the Northern Star(all astral items) will let you crack some pretty tough MR.

- Kel

[PvK]

I've fought Jotuns as Ulm a few times. Best to use masses of cannon fodder against them, rather than get your best troops and their expensive armor smashed. Missile weapons and large quantities of armor-optional troops seem to do the trick.

PvK