The harm that software pirates do
 

Software piracy sucks. Rationalize it as you will, it still sucks.

And while most of us could state very briefly the direct harm they do, the response to the post by Ubik illustrates the indirect harm they do. Software Piracy, like cheating, creates an atmosphere of hostility and suspicion, in which the innocent are often falsely accused on the basis of scanty evidence.

Ubik, I'm sorry. Personally, I'm convinced that you are innocent of all wrong-doing or criminal intent.

[This message has been edited by Possum (edited 22 February 2001).]

Re: The harm that software pirates do
 

Agreed while what Ubik said may have been the full and compleate truth, sending an exe file is piracy regardless of the condition.

I myself have been waiting for this game for several weeks and I am truly dieing to play it but I would never ask for an exe file it's illegal, unjust, and amoral. Especilay with small companies like MM they can't aford it. Patience is a very long and often frustrating virtue but it's woth the effort. Besides it's just that much better if you had to wait for it http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: The harm that software pirates do
 

Personally I think it is up to MM/Shrapnel to decide weather to give the guy the exe file. They just need to check their customer records, if the guy bought it once I don't see why they wouldn't replace it. After all the gut was from Portugal right? I'm sure they don't have 1000's of customers there. Should be easy enough to check.

Re: The harm that software pirates do
 

Sigh. Well, I'm a bit disappointed that both of you seem to have missed my real point (the general situation) in your focus on the specific.

But I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.

I am NOT saying that anyone should send him the EXE. In fact, we shouldn't send it to him. But that wasn't my main point.

Re: The harm that software pirates do
 

Yes, Possum. You speak wise words. That is the complete truth.

As for sending a file being illegal, I believe it is, but after all, who really buys a product paying too much attention to the legal babble of the agreement, specially that part that ilibates the developer of any damages done to our computer (like formating drive C for example)?
If I was taking it too seriously, I would never have bought the 50-60 titles I am now looking at at my desk...

AND

after all, I know I am legal. I am not afraid of telling you who I am, neither I am afraid of any kind of search. I have the CD. I have the Credit Card Transfer.


Regards,

Carlos Gustavo

Re: The harm that software pirates do
 

What I want to know is where did you get a job that allows you to sit and play a game all day long. (I am taking the idea that you do not work for a gaming company, game research company.)

Re: The harm that software pirates do
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dracus:
What I want to know is where did you get a job that allows you to sit and play a game all day long. (I am taking the idea that you do not work for a gaming company, game research company.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A friend of mine works at a bank, and he kept up in a PBEM game that he played from work for a while. I have time to read this friggin board every day, and it would probably take less time for me to just play the game. how many office workers do you seek playing solitare, or computer guys playing quake in the office? its not that rare to come by.

A better question is, where do I find a job that will keep me interested, engaged, and occupied such that I dont have to twiddle my diddle sitting here on this forum all the time.

Re: The harm that software pirates do
 

At my job , if they catch ypu playing games of any kind, they will fire you and I support computers al day.

Re: The harm that software pirates do
 

Well guys, I never said I would play it all day long... Also I dont understand what this has to do with my request for the EXE file.

But strictly for the record,I played it for 2 and a half hours, from 1p.m. to 3:30p.m.
I arrived at home at 10:30p.m.

AND

Last but not the least... I AM THE BOSS. I try to catch the others (well really I dont try... as far as they have their projects on schedule we can all have some nice network games... I find this much more efficient management wise than playing bad cop).

Re: The harm that software pirates do
 

Wish you were my boss, anyway this is the problem with message Boards they get a little convoluted and the original purpose is lost, but it's kinda cool seeing where the conversation will go next.

Re: The harm that software pirates do
 

OK, OK, I admit it, I'm biased. My family is portugese. My great-grandfather was named Luis Antonio Gonsalves, and he was born on the island of Flores, in the Azores http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Re: The harm that software pirates do
 

Oh! Possum! Dont say that!

As everybody knows there are no coincidences, they will start accusing BOTH of us of making a large scale software pirate business with links to the Russian Mafia, the Triads and Saddam Hussein! ;-)

Azores is a beautiful archipelago. The people are really nice there.
Unfortunately, I was born and live in Lisbon, a place far less attractive to live.

I travel a lot and its really weird as being such a small country, how can always exist a Portuguese soul or descendent in the world. But well, our past History is far greater than our actual size. ;-)

Nice to hear from you!
...and thanks for your support! We the Portuguese large scale software pirates must always stick together! ;-)))


Regards,

Carlos Gustavo Rodrigues

Re: The harm that software pirates do
 

Ubik, ROFL!

But back to SE4.

I'm curious, how did you hear about it initially? I honestly can't remember how I first stumbled on it.

Is SE4 available in Languages other than English? I recall that my copy of Civ2 came with the option to install it in English, German, or French; is SE4 like that?

I speak semi-fluent conversational spanish, (your english is obviously far better than that), but the idea of trying to play a game entirely in spanish intimidates me severely. How does one deal with playing a game, and reading the rules and such, in a language other than one's own?

Re: The harm that software pirates do
 

Ubik,

At the risk of permanantly labeling myself as an "old-fuddy duddy" I feel I must speak my mind about this.

Whether or not you purchased a copy of SEIV legitimately is irrelevant.

You humorous responses about conspiracies and Portuguese pirating are also irrelevant and misdirecting.

The fact that you purchased a copy does not entitle you to emailing or receiving copies of the .exe file. That remains the legally protected intellectual property of Malfador. Your purchase fee only entitles you to use the game. It does not transfer actual ownership of anything except the pLastic content of the CD the software came on.

Of course no-one is going to get rich pirating a game like SEIV, but even small scale copying like this can set a precedent which could destroy a game like this.

The fact remains that your request for the .exe file was wrong. You participated in illegal behavior, however trivial in your mind, and encouraged illegal behavior in others.

The ramifications of your actions may not be clear to you, but they are obvious to me. There may be individuals reading these forums that are considering the purchase of this game. They may not realize before seeing your post how easy it is to steal a game like this.

The real nightmare for game designers is not the "Large-scale Pirates". It is the public's general attitude that seems to be that if it can be copied, it's ok to copy it.

For whatever reason, technical or economic, Aaron decided not to copy protect the retail Version of the game. The fact that he did not however does not give anyone the "right" to copy it, any more than leaving my front door unlocked gives anyone the "right" to come in uninvited.

When all is said and done, you could have simply waited till you got home and got your purchased copy.

Geo

Re: The harm that software pirates do
 

Geoschmo,

No, I don't think you are an old fuddy-duddy. I think you are a decent and honorable man who is righteously outraged by the dishonesty of others.

But, with all due courtesy, I also think you are barking up the wrong tree in this particular instance.

I stated unequivocally that Ubik really should not have asked for or been sent the EXE. Ubik admitted, at least by implication, that this was so.

But one of the main issues in any piracy case is "intent to defraud", and since Ubik is a licensee of SE4, there was clearly no such intent.

Geo, Ubik has posted here repeatedly, and admitted in print what he did. Every time he Posts here, his IP address is recorded permanently. He lives in europe, where the software piracy enforcement agency is far more fierce than its American counterpart, with even more sweeping powers of search, arrest, and seizure. If he was a pirate, all Shrapnel would have to do is drop a line to the euro piracy agency, with his IP address or addresses, and his goose would be severely cooked.

Now, whatever you may suspect about Ubik's morals, the man is obviously not stupid. If he was a pirate, there is no way he would expose and incriminate himself like that.

Please, Geo, take another look at the title of this thread, and who started it http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

NOBODY here is condoning software piracy, in any way, shape, or form!

Re: The harm that software pirates do
 

I was born and raised in Europe, most countries in europe have a 50% english speaker rate, with some countries like Holland and Germany as high as 78%. Software piracy is (just like soft drugs) usually ignored except for large scale blatent offenses.

While Ubik my have a purchased copy or that he posted his address or that his ip address is "recorded" is all besides the point.

ip address recorded,... 99.9% of all dialups are assigned a random ip address from a pool usually a class c (256 addresses) from an isp. so we can narrow it down to a city,....

I agree with Geoschmo, while a large company like microsoft is probably not hurt, a small one man operation is, this is not napster(an other can of worms).

No doubt Ubik works computer related, wonder what his company would do if customers started swapping his products.

By buying the game legally you provide MM the chance to provide us service by getting us updates and patches,... look at some of the other games out there and see how many patches they post, if any ever where even released.

Again i am not saying Ubik is doing anything illegal, although i do believe he is being careless, anybody part of the se4@yahooGroups mailing list will no doubt have had recieved several requests from people to end them your exe file.

Re: The harm that software pirates do
 

I think I get what you are saying Possum.
We are all against it and we all have preconcieved notions about software pirates. We generally suspect the worst when we see a request like Ubik's. It is good to be cautious but we should not jump the gun.
I believe him. I think he just went about asking for help in the wrong way. He should have gone directly to MM/Shrapnel and probably would have gotten what he wanted if he had purchased the game once.

Re: The harm that software pirates do
 

Possum,

I have no quarrel with you or anything you have said here. I did see that you started this thread. I thought from the title this would be the appropriate place for these comments.

I am not sure where you got from my post that I was accusing Ubik of pirating. On the contrary, my point was that pirating isn't the problem. The problem is the overall attitude people have about electronic media in general.

Your faith in Ubik is admirable, although how you have reached such a firm conclusion simply on the basis of his comments in these forums is beyond me.

However, I will say again, whether or not he legitmatly purchased a copy of SEIV is irrelevant. It does not give him the right to request a copy of the exe file. I am glad to read that he feels now it was inappropriate, although I have not seen him say that. Perhaps I just missed it?

I am not the judge of Ubik, or anyone else for that matter. I did not intend to make a statement of his morals. I am simply addressing this specific action. And I stand by what I have already said about that.

Geo

Re: The harm that software pirates do
 

To Geoshmo:
you a lawyer right? ;-)
Using your analogy, I only have to say the following... I bought the keys to your house.
You sold them to me. Unfotunately, it is lunch time and I dont have the keys with me but I really want to enter your house to take a look at your beautiful Goldenfish. I ask some other guy who bought the key to your house to borrow it to me IN FRONT OF YOUR NOSE. Some guy give it to me (THX!).

I dont know where I am wrong but legalese is not one of my spoken Languages. The problem so well explained by Possum is the climate of mistrust piracy has spread. But if you look at things the other way, what do you see?
- A guy using the message board FROM THE GAME DISTRIBUTOR is asking for the exe.
- The guy readily identifies himself AGAIN in the message board of the game distributor.
- The guy gives an uncommon address in Portugal easily tracked.
- The game distributor never posted a message warning people the name and address the guy posted is not on their database.

It seems on the side of evidence, you just have a handfull of nothing.

But I will drop a gauntlet here. I ask now that Shrapnel Games publish here a message telling the people the name and address I posted is fake (of course, there is always the next can of worms... if the name and address checks in the database, I can be other person impersonating this guy... human mistrust never ends...). I also ask that Shrapnel Games ban me from this message board as it cannot pact with a software pirate.
Until Shrapnel Games don't post the message, I am innocent of software piracy.

I think your bills have a saying as "In God We Trust". Sorry, maybe its my fault, but until proved wrong I also trust people. Maybe its cultural. Here in Portugal we are not so distrustful of each other...

I am sorry, but with so meager evidence (asking for an exe), you cannot accuse me of anything.

To Possum:

Well, we grow up learning a second language (and very few of us speak even below average spanish, as we always choose English...lets say we make ourselves understood in spanish). I am used to read and talk in English quite more than the average Portuguese. Its dificult at first because we are permanently translating the language from our native language (Portuguese in my case) to the other language. The secret is to think in the other language. You must read a lot and practice a lot. I need to know very well English because of my Master degree and my work.

I really dont know much of Spanish but I think if you post a message in Spanish, I will gladly answer it in Portuguese!

Abour SE IV... I saw this game for the first time in December, looking at Gamesdomain where the game was rated GOLD. I have never heard of it before and I am sad such a good piece of software doesnt make it in the mainstream industry...You should read the interview given by the Lead Designer of MOO3 about this same problem (www.moo3.com)... we are being led by the nose by some guys who never played a game in their life, who dont know what game design is, who dont understand criativity as there is none inside their void economicised heads. The games so many of us play are just clones of each other, the next one having more eye candy and better sounds than the Last one. I admire Aaron to have the courage to invest his time in a project like this. Because it is a very risky proposition today making a game with content. And I must congratulate the guys at Shrapnel Games to support such a nice game.
Now, if you want to see other games with content, find a game developed by a Nordic company (dont know the country)called "Europa Universalis". If you enjoy strategy games in Medieval Europe you wont be disapointed! :-)

Fica bem! (stay well in Portuguese)

Carlos Gustavo Rodrigues

P.S. - Cant recall if its "Europa Universallis" or "Europa Unniversalis" or "Europa Universalis". Search for the three options!

Re: The harm that software pirates do
 

I am sure shrapnel has more to do than look through forums.

And even if they did, you are in a foreign country and untouchable/not worth the trouble for the small amount in question.

Distrust is good sometimes, if not, i have some swap land to sell ya.

but we may stop conversation, the horse is dead, we are making glue.

Re: The harm that software pirates do
 

No one is saying your a pirate Ubik.

Mearly that we believe it isn't right. Not only that its careless. It shows those that don't know how to steal the game how to.

And yeah the Statement in America is "In God we Trust" Maybe we should have said it better. "We trust ONLY god. No one else" http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Re: The harm that software pirates do
 

Since everyone else has something to say on this, I had to make a comment.

" Comment "

There now I feel better.

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Re: The harm that software pirates do
 

SE IV is, as far as I know, the ONLY game that is not distributed through shops ( perhaps besides Stars!). Anyway, that's how Aaron decides to do it, and Shrapnel agreed to help him. There is NO WAY that somebody can use the BB to ask for the main source of the program to be distributed by email or anything else THROUGH participants on the BB. IF you miss anything, want to reinstall it, or whatever, send a request to Shrapnel or MM. They KNOW you bought it, or not.

So don't complain that we gamers don't trust any requests for sending .exe files or whatever files to somebody who sends such requests to the BB. In spite of all good arguments, WE SHOULD STICK TO THIS POLICY!
There are too many software pirates to believe the exceptions to the rule http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon10.gif.

------------------
PERHAPS THIS IS A GOOD DAY TO DIE &lt;Worf facing another critical fight&gt;

[This message has been edited by nmoppa (edited 24 February 2001).]

Re: The harm that software pirates do
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nmoppa:
There are too many software pirates to believe the exceptions to the rule http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon10.gif.
[/b]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Alas, this is far too true. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: The harm that software pirates do
 

Here's a better tagline for you, nmoppa

PERHAPS THIS IS A GOOD DAY TO TRUST SOMEONE &lt;Worf facing another friday night home alone&gt;

Re: The harm that software pirates do
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nmoppa:
SE IV is, as far as I know, the ONLY game that is not distributed through shops ( perhaps besides Stars!).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, it's not the only game that is not sold in stores. Another that comes immediately to mind is Combat Mission: Beyond Overlord. CM, by the way, is probably the best computer war game ever made to date. Not only that, but it has support that is unmatched by any big game companies. CM and SE4 are two of the best games to be released in the Last year, both have excellent support, both are made by very small operations, and niether is available in stores. Are we seeing the beginning of a trend here? We can only hope so.

Re: The harm that software pirates do
 

What CustomC said...

only games I fool with these days are CM and SEIV.

every other game I messed with in the past year is abandonware within weeks of publishing....

Re: The harm that software pirates do
 

Well, I fully agree with you... As far as I am concerned 98% of the games released are just crap. But I also play Rowan's Battle of Britain (good blend between flight sim and stategy game), X-Tension (a game in the line of the old ELITE), Europa Universalis (very good strategy game set between the XIV and XVII centuries, where you play one of the 8 major powers in Europe). I am also a big fan of an old tactical game called Steel Panthers
(you can dowload it for free at www.matrixgames.com)
I must say I also enjoy Heroes of Might and Magic III... although the real breakthrough wass in the first of the series the others are just more of the same...

Re: The harm that software pirates do
 

Is X-Tension out yet? Or, maybe it's out in Europe but we'll have to wait another six months until it's out int the States?

Here's the website I found that said it won't be out for another 167 days.
http://xtension.beyondthefrontier.com/beyond.html

Do y'all know if Combat Mission has an AI? Or, is it strictly human vs. human?

Thanks.

Re: The harm that software pirates do
 

I heard the game was already released in the States not the add on for X-Beyond the frontier, but the full X-Gold package.

you can always go to www.egosoft.com and order it from them!

CM has AI.

Re: The harm that software pirates do
 

CM most definitely has an AI...

Re: The harm that software pirates do
 

I wish we could convince MM to allow people to buy and then download the game off the net, I mean I've been waiting for 2 and a half weeks, I would kill for a downloadable Version that I could just burn onto a cd. It would be soooooooo nice! Give me a downlaodable Version and send me your custom CD and such in the mail so I don't have to wait so long to play.

Re: The harm that software pirates do
 

Well, I'm not criticizing MM for choosing not to do that, but I just looked at My CD, and the game itself is only 40 megs. Most of us d/l larger demos on a weekly basis. So it's not a case of the game being too big.

Re: The harm that software pirates do
 

Hey, not everyone has a T1 connection man!
Plus, the demos included are a pitch for the other games. SB is probably the best one on the CD.

Re: The harm that software pirates do
 

Thanks for the info on X-Tension and CM.

Even if SEIV could fit on a floppy, I would urge them not to make it available for download. The software industry estimates that they lose fully half their profits because of software piracy.

On another note, I remember downloading Linux when I had just a 28.8 modem. I think it took me between 20 and 30 HOURS to download it. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: The harm that software pirates do
 

I have been to lazy to try the demos that shipped with the game. Anyone tried any of them? Any recommendations?