Latest patch, mods & current game
 

I just know this must have been asked a thousand times before (please don't scream), but...

I've just got back from a two week holiday http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon6.gif. I was in the middle of a 1.19 game with "most common" mods (i.e. Mod_Pack_1.01, plus required ship sets). I would like to continue my game. May I just ask:

1. Can I patch and continue, or must/should I restart? From my brief tour here it looks as though it's worth patching, even though I'm already modded?

2. Presumably patch will clobber mods, do I need to remod (newer Versions of above)? And while I'm at it, I *know* different people recommend slightly different mods; I don't want new techs, don't care about shipsets, just want the best AI, but I do find it's very unclear whose mods will clobber who else's, so in the end I decided to do Mod_Pack_1.01 *only* coz I didn't know whether other good looking ones would undo that; seems a shame, but it's all a bit messy...

3. For idiots like me who forget, why can't there be a permanent link somewhere here to latest patch/mods --- I can never remember...

Re: Latest patch, mods & current game
 

1-not sure. wasn't able to myself but since it was only an AI spanking me.. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

2-sure thing....the MOD pak at least didn't/wasn't affected too much by the patch...though the MOD Squad has released a new update for it (v 1.6 IIRC).

[This message has been edited by pathfinder (edited 05 March 2001).]

Re: Latest patch, mods & current game
 

If you just want mods that just tweak the existing game I recommend;
1) Mod Pack,
2) Sundevil's mod (tweaks politics, anger files)
3) My mod - ResearchShip_v127c (tweaks research and ship design files and gives point defence at game start in order to help the Ai in ship combat).

All of these mods are compatible. I suggest that you load them in the above order.

I also like a couple of the SystemNames mods around (eg like those produced by Tarkin and Dracus).
I have combined a number together and have done a bit of an edit on them for my own purposes. I would suggest that you do the same.

Re: Latest patch, mods & current game
 

yup, that is basically what I have (GE's research, Sundevil's anger/politics, modpack v 1.6) plus Tampa_Gamer's sound files.

I also have added upgraded AI to the races sets I have d/l'd and made a couple myself. I usually use a default set of AI files and them MOD it to make it fit the AI_general file description or at least I try http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Re: Latest patch, mods & current game
 

I tend to avoid mods other then new shipsets because I like to stick with the official game and be able to more accurately compare scores with my friends (who do the same), if we started using different mods our strategies for multiplayer would all get messed up by the quirks of our own patch system, does anyone have any idea when MM will be going over the various mods (especially system mods) and incorporating some new stuff into the game?

Re: Latest patch, mods & current game
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jon Brave:

3. For idiots like me who forget, why can't there be a permanent link somewhere here to latest patch/mods --- I can never remember...[/b]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What is the link for the mods? I would have thought they were here somewhere, but I can't find them.

Re: Latest patch, mods & current game
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Windborne:
I tend to avoid mods other then new shipsets because I like to stick with the official game and be able to more accurately compare scores with my friends (who do the same), if we started using different mods our strategies for multiplayer would all get messed up by the quirks of our own patch system, does anyone have any idea when MM will be going over the various mods (especially system mods) and incorporating some new stuff into the game?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Windborne....most of these mods don't change the basic game. They add smarter races, different shipsets, and other things that don't alter the basic game (like changing research costs, build costs, item abilities, or, adding items to the research tree).


------------------
Spyder, Chairman of the Arachnid Consortium

Re: Latest patch, mods & current game
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by God Emperor:
If you just want mods that just tweak the existing game I recommend;
1) Mod Pack,
2) Sundevil's mod (tweaks politics, anger files)
3) My mod - ResearchShip_v127c (tweaks research and ship design files and gives point defence at game start in order to help the Ai in ship combat).

All of these mods are compatible. I suggest that you load them in the above order.

I also like a couple of the SystemNames mods around (eg like those produced by Tarkin and Dracus).
I have combined a number together and have done a bit of an edit on them for my own purposes. I would suggest that you do the same.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

God Emperor, you're a case in point. I'm sorry, but I just don't understand. I have previously taken this ModPack1.01 thing. My understanding is that either Mephisto or Tampa_Gamer had patches in there to improve the basic AI. Then I see you touting your stuff, which looks v. interesting. But I won't do yours 'coz I think it'll overwrite at least some stuff in their ModPack (or you'll have old Versions of some files). Which could well be a shame, with all deference to you. Now I'm beginning to wonder whether they're mods only affect their races (Darloks/EA), maybe yours are the only ones improving other AI...

Look, why don't you be a hero? This is desperately complicated, whatever anyone says. *Explain* here how the common mods interact? Not sell your stuff, if you see what I mean, but just try to explain the relationship between general files/your stuff/modpack1/latest patch/what overwrites what... you know what I mean without listing everything. It would be *so* appreciated.

There are still things like this that I know I'm not the only one who doesn't get the picture. There are often questions, for example, about whether you have to pick a race explicitly at the start of a game. I want to know why I initially tried kust getting ModPack1.01 and thought it said I didn't have to have special shipsets if I couldn't be bothered, but found it wouldn't work right (missing files, .bmps etc.) till I eventually I had to go somewhere else to get the shipsets just to get it to work, and now I've doubtless got to do that again...

Sorry to go on. How about a modders-usage guide for the *non-*modders?

Aaaaahhhh, I just saw Richard Arnesen's post for modders guide which seems to me to strike a chord... Can't wait that long, though, so any answers now still appreciated http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif


[This message has been edited by Jon Brave (edited 06 March 2001).]

Re: Latest patch, mods & current game
 

John Brave, apologies if I have not been very explanatory in my Posts (I put details in the Readme file that accompanies the mod). I should probably illustrate what I have done with an example;

=========================================
Mod Pack Amonkrie Research file;
AI State := Exploration, Infrastructure, Prepare for Attack, Attack, Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)
Tech Area Name := Physics
Tech Area Level := 1
Tech Area Min Percent := 100

AI State := Exploration, Infrastructure, Prepare for Attack, Attack, Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)
Tech Area Name := Energy Stream Weapons
Tech Area Level := 3
Tech Area Min Percent := 100

AI State := Exploration, Infrastructure, Prepare for Attack, Attack, Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)
Tech Area Name := Ship Construction
Tech Area Level := 4
Tech Area Min Percent := 100

AI State := Exploration, Infrastructure, Prepare for Attack, Attack, Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)
Tech Area Name := Construction
Tech Area Level := 1
Tech Area Min Percent := 100

AI State := Exploration, Infrastructure, Prepare for Attack, Attack, Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)
Tech Area Name := Weapon Platforms
Tech Area Level := 1
Tech Area Min Percent := 100

AI State := Exploration, Infrastructure, Prepare for Attack, Attack, Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)
Tech Area Name := Mines
Tech Area Level := 1
Tech Area Min Percent := 100

AI State := Exploration, Infrastructure, Prepare for Attack, Attack, Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)
Tech Area Name := Fighters
Tech Area Level := 1
Tech Area Min Percent := 100

AI State := Exploration, Infrastructure, Prepare for Attack, Attack, Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)
Tech Area Name := Smaller Weapons
Tech Area Level := 1
Tech Area Min Percent := 100

AI State := Exploration, Infrastructure, Prepare for Attack, Attack, Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)
Tech Area Name := Energy Stream Weapons
Tech Area Level := 5
Tech Area Min Percent := 25

AI State := Exploration, Infrastructure, Prepare for Attack, Attack, Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)
Tech Area Name := Torpedo Weapons
Tech Area Level := 8
Tech Area Min Percent := 25

AI State := Exploration, Infrastructure, Prepare for Attack, Attack, Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)
Tech Area Name := Shields
Tech Area Level := 5
Tech Area Min Percent := 25

Note the number of techs that are researched between Physics and shields. You or I, if we researched physics, would immediately research at least shields 1 or 2 to get some benefit from researching Physics.
This section of the research file is unchanged from the v.127 research file and is not something accidently introduced by the mod pack guys.

==========================================
My modified Amonkrie Research file:

AI State := Exploration, Infrastructure, Prepare for Attack, Attack, Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)
Tech Area Name := Physics
Tech Area Level := 1
Tech Area Min Percent := 100

AI State := Exploration, Infrastructure, Prepare for Attack, Attack, Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)
Tech Area Name := Shields
Tech Area Level := 2
Tech Area Min Percent := 25

AI State := Exploration, Infrastructure, Prepare for Attack, Attack, Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)
Tech Area Name := Energy Stream Weapons
Tech Area Level := 3
Tech Area Min Percent := 100

AI State := Exploration, Infrastructure, Prepare for Attack, Attack, Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)
Tech Area Name := Ship Construction
Tech Area Level := 4
Tech Area Min Percent := 100

AI State := Exploration, Infrastructure, Prepare for Attack, Attack, Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)
Tech Area Name := Construction
Tech Area Level := 1
Tech Area Min Percent := 100

AI State := Exploration, Infrastructure, Prepare for Attack, Attack, Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)
Tech Area Name := Weapon Platforms
Tech Area Level := 1
Tech Area Min Percent := 100

AI State := Exploration, Infrastructure, Prepare for Attack, Attack, Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)
Tech Area Name := Mines
Tech Area Level := 1
Tech Area Min Percent := 100

AI State := Exploration, Infrastructure, Prepare for Attack, Attack, Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)
Tech Area Name := Fighters
Tech Area Level := 1
Tech Area Min Percent := 100

AI State := Exploration, Infrastructure, Prepare for Attack, Attack, Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)
Tech Area Name := Smaller Weapons
Tech Area Level := 1
Tech Area Min Percent := 100

AI State := Exploration, Infrastructure, Prepare for Attack, Attack, Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)
Tech Area Name := Energy Stream Weapons
Tech Area Level := 5
Tech Area Min Percent := 25

AI State := Exploration, Infrastructure, Prepare for Attack, Attack, Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)
Tech Area Name := Torpedo Weapons
Tech Area Level := 8
Tech Area Min Percent := 25

AI State := Exploration, Infrastructure, Prepare for Attack, Attack, Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)
Tech Area Name := Shields
Tech Area Level := 5
Tech Area Min Percent := 25

Note that I have inserted Shields Lvl 2 immediately after Physics. I acknowledge that whether it should be Shields 1 or 2 could be debated, but Shields 2 isnt that expensive so I elected to go with it.

=========================================
This is the sort of stuff that I have concentrated on tweaking. It should be noted that the Modpack guys have made some improvements to the Research files, but, there were still a lot more things that could be improved.

I understand that Sinapus is working on tweaking the Research files (he has picked up a couple of things I missed) and I am hoping that eventually a comprehensive Research mod may be issued as part of mod pack.

All of my Posts so far have been with this eventual aim in mind. Again, I apologise if my Posts did not convey my intent adequately and sounded like grand standing instead.
Its just that the faults in the research files are so obvious when you look at them in detail, that I have been trying to make others aware that the AI is being weakened by something that can easily be fixed. I have emailed Aaron/Malfador but not recieved any response.

Regards,
God Emperor


[This message has been edited by God Emperor (edited 07 March 2001).]

Re: Latest patch, mods & current game
 

God Emperor,

Please don't feel you have to apologise! You must understand I/we are very appreciative of your efforts, however it may sound.

But your latest post is the *opposite* of what I'm looking for, it's so detailed. I'm sure its content is very good. I'm sure you're right that simple tweaks will improve the AI, which is exactly what I am looking for.

But what I don't understand --- and nor do others --- is a *simple* explanation of how/whether, say, your mods do/don't clash with other peoples', or are up-to-date with the latest patch etc. So I end up not using yours because of this. I do realise how complex all this is to explain briefly, but that's what people who want to *use* the mod, not *understand* it, need to know. If I'm going to use, say, the latest Version of the "standard" Mod Pack I've been going on about, how does yours fit in, precisely? Does the order of applying matter (well I guess that depends on whether you mod the same files). All this is so frustrating, I'll end up not patching & not remodding because of this, which is a shame. Perhaps if I read all the read.mes with a magnifying glass I'll understand, but when I've tried I get lost between different peoples' explanations... I just want a decent opponent http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Latest patch, mods & current game
 

JB,
I had the same confusion over the order and compatibility of different mods.
I decided to use the TDM mod as the base mod because they did not add anything to the game that was not already in there. The TDM Mod pack affects a lot of areas in the standard races and gives a few new races. In the readme file they explain exactly what areas they tweaked on the races.
Other mods, God Emperors racemod and Sun Devils angermod come to mind, change specialized areas of the AI. If they change an area that is unmodified by an insatlled patch then the order you install them is not important. When both mods change the same file you have to make a choice.
The ones that you really need to pay attention to are mods that add new techs, weapons, etc. You may overwrite a file that is needed to make them work if you add mods in the wrong order.
Read the readme files carefully and try them out. Most of them are great.

Re: Latest patch, mods & current game
 

Jon,
My research mod essentially changes the order in which the AI researches certain techs (in order to ensure that follow on techs are researched immediately) and also fixes some ommissions. As a result, the file does not impact upon any other data files and is safe to use with any other "tweak" mods (as opposed to those mods that introduce new technology areas).

My DesignCreation mod however includes the TechAreas data file, as it requires point defence to be available at game start. Again, it is compatible with any "tweak" mods that do not have changed TechAreas or DesignCreation files.

I have reviewed the mod pack Research, DesignCreation and TechAreas files and have concluded that my files can be used to overwrite them as they are "later Versions" which go beyond mod pack.

Similarly, I believe this to be the case for Sundevils mod which tweaks the Anger and Politics files, and which again does not impact on any other files that may have been tweaked.

Sundevil, Pathfinder, Mephisto, can you comment any further?

Re: Latest patch, mods & current game
 

Mmm, I can add a "compatibility file" to the TDM_MOD that list all other MODs that can be added. In this case it would be required to sent me these MODs to my email but don't forget a Version number for your Mod!

[ June 27, 2002, 09:36: Message edited by: [K126]Mephisto ]

Re: Latest patch, mods & current game
 

Would it be possible to 'elect' a supreme Mod chairman that could compile all 'approved' mods into one file to allay any fears of overwriting and ensure compatibility between mods.

So that instead of getting the Modpack, God emporers mod, Sun Devils mod, the tech tree mod, the research mod, and the (take a quick breath), the sound mod, we could just get one comprehensive mod???

I realize that all modders would have to approve of their mods being included and perhaps mildly altered to ensure no overwriting.

this however seems to be the best way to do this in my mind. And I feel like it would appear that there is enough friendly brotherhood between modders that this might not be a problem.

Thoughts?

Ken

Re: Latest patch, mods & current game
 

Well, at the moment the God Emperors mod conflicts with the Xi'Chung research files. Also, in the near future I will be working on 5 more default races and that will cause even more conflicts.

Re: Latest patch, mods & current game
 

What's really needed is a "difference engine": a tool which would take a modder's files (which would only have their mods and nothing else; i.e. only their "differences") and MERGE them with the existing files in the ModPack directory or if there is no existing file by copying the original and then merging.

A more sophisticated Version would compare the ModPack directory files with the original files first, and if the merging mods would replace something which was not in the original, prompt for which to use: the old mod or the new one.

It might be necessary to establish a format for modder difference files to be able to "designate" a component which is to be replaced or removed or simply added, but that should be fairly simple with keywords such as "REPLACE title" or "ADD title AFTER title" or "DELETE title". (I haven't gotten into modding as yet, so I don't know all the ramifications.) But with the work going on to make the modding process easier, this should be fairly easy to implement.

-Dubious-

------------------
"All sources are dubious until their reliabilty has been repeatedly proven. Even then their information should be independently verified." - The unwritten "spooks handbook"

[This message has been edited by Dubious (edited 08 March 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Dubious (edited 08 March 2001).]

Re: Latest patch, mods & current game
 

Daynarr, I will delete my XiChung files to ensure compatibility, if you believe that your XiChung_Research file has fixed the Tech follow-on problems....Any thoughts on the four tech item queue problem?

Javaslinger,
I agree with your idea and ask whether the mod-pack crew would be happy to take on the role you were suggesting...

Alternatively, maybe Malfador could do this, particularly for the "tweaking" mods.


[This message has been edited by God Emperor (edited 08 March 2001).]

Re: Latest patch, mods & current game
 

I'm pretty new to modding. But aren't many mods incompatible with each other since they change different settings to customize the game according to the preferences of a particular person? Isn't that why you have to pick a mod that is the closest match to what you want out of the game?

I have looked at a few of the data files and have a couple of questions. Would it be fair to say that any mod that modifies files in these directories would be generally incompatible with the TDM Mod? Indeed, wouldn't two mods that modify anything in these directories be incompatible with each other probably?

1. se4\data
2. se4\ai
3. se4\pictures\races directories specific to each mod

Thanks!

[This message has been edited by raynor (edited 08 March 2001).]

Re: Latest patch, mods & current game
 

Any mod that changes Se4\Data (although I strongly recommend changing that data in a different manner, like SE4\Mymod\Data, so that original data remains intact) should be compatible with ModPack.
The modes dealing with SE4\Pictures\races will, most likely, be incompatible.
Se4\AI has some changes in it (like Default_AI_Planet_Types.txt) but should be pretty safe to mod otherwise (at least for now).
The complete list of files moded can be found in the readme files that come with the pack (they are in the Se4\ModPack folder).

[This message has been edited by Daynarr (edited 08 March 2001).]

Re: Latest patch, mods & current game
 

I already volunteered to check other MODs for compatibility but that is not as easy as it sounds. First of all, what is compatible? Just not overwriting the ModPack files? Or should the ModPack races use these altered files? What about people who don't want to install the sound patch?

Nevertheless, Modders, sent me your files and I will make a "compatibility list".

Re: Latest patch, mods & current game
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daynarr:
Any mod that changes Se4\Data (although I strongly recommend changing that data in a different manner, like SE4\Mymod\Data, so that original data remains intact) should be compatible with ModPack.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm confused. The TDM ModPack creates se4\ModPack and directs se4\path.txt to point at this file. The entire TDM ModPack goes into se4\ModPack, right? Now, another mod could be installed in se4\MyMod. But for it to work, you would point se4\path.txt to se4\MyMod, wouldn't you? So, wouldn't these two mods be running completely separately?

Thanks for your help!

Re: Latest patch, mods & current game
 

Yes, they would not both be running in the same game if you had two different directories. You can either (1) keep it that way and just choose which mod to run for each separate game by changing the "path.txt" or (2) put the modified components.txt file in the Modpack directory. The only catch is that if you have created new components or seriously modified them, the AIs may not effectively use the new components or it may effect their existing designs.

Re: Latest patch, mods & current game
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tampa_Gamer:
(2)put the modified components.txt file in the Modpack directory. The only catch is that if you have created new components or seriously modified them, the AIs may not effectively use the new components or it may effect their existing designs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When I suggested that those directories might cause incompatibilities, this is exactly what I was thinking. The worst case scenario is someone who puts a 'super' weapon in components.txt and modifies his race to research and use this weapon. This could put the other races at a severe disadvantage. Someone could do the same with a facility. Probably, the only compatible mods to se4\ModPack\data would be aesthetic mods such as changing Emperor Names, Titles or Empire Names. Almost anything else, and you run the risk of altering the playbalance.

If the Mod goes in its own directory off of the main directory, I don't think the modder should send it to Mephisto, do you think? These mods should *always* be compatible.

Likewise, any mod that want to alter non-aesthetic files in se4\ModPack\data should similarly not be tested as it will most likely create playbalance problems, right?

[This message has been edited by raynor (edited 08 March 2001).]