Poll: Most useful path of magic?
 

Pick one path that you think is the most useful in your games overall. I hope this will generate some interesting discussion.

Re: Poll: Most useful path of magic?
 

I voted for Death magic. (For Blood nations, however, Blood might be better.) If you could use only one path, Death would be a good choice: lifedrain weapons, excellent summoning (including some of the most cost-efficient SCs), fear spells and items, and devastating global enchantments.

Overall, the paths are amazingly well balanced. Each path has at least a few things that are highly desireable. As some past topics have said, Water seems to be weak, with Quickness as the only "thing you almost must have."

Re: Poll: Most useful path of magic?
 

If unique blood summons (Ice Devils, Arch Devils, greater demons) were unlimited, or you could keep the horrors you summon, I would vote Blood. But Death summons are just too good and too cheap, and it even has excellent evocations and artillery spells.

Water is certainly the weak path. The underwater-only spells and summons are not all that good, and water magic aboveground is even less useful, aside from the Falling Frost which very few units can cast. The best unlimited summon, Sea Trolls, cost huge amounts of upkeep - which renders them undesirable. Water mages that cannot cast Falling Frost just pick their noses or cast Breath of Winter and kill all your other commanders.

Frostbrands, Swords of Swiftness, and Boots of Quickness are nice but not irreplacable. The Boots are fairly useless unless you have a zero-encumbrance (i.e., Death summon) unit anyway, IMO.

Re: Poll: Most useful path of magic?
 

In the base game the best path is probably Air. It has all of the tricks: excellent buffs, magical movement, awesome combat magics, and decent summons ( the queens ).

Death is also excellent as it has some very powerful spells which are very low research level ( skelly spam! ).

Re: Poll: Most useful path of magic?
 

I cant decide, death or air.

Re: Poll: Most useful path of magic?
 

I voted astral, but I might just have well have voted death. Either air or blood would be a very, very close third. The qualitative gap between the top 4 and bottom 4(particularly fire) is a bit more clear-cut.

Re: Poll: Most useful path of magic?
 

Why Astral? Just curious.

Re: Poll: Most useful path of magic?
 

They forge clams, hate it or love it.

Frozen heart is a decent spell for less than w3 once you get to high research levels.

Really water isn't all that bad. I don't think its much worse than fire, in fact.

I think I'll go astral too. Gives you access to other paths (air and fire from summons, plus path boosters). Good buffs (luck, body ethereal, astral weapons), good offense spells (lots of armor negating). Plus wish if you are playing unmodded game. It is even better in combination with other paths (for example, death=nether darts, water=clams,abominations) but overall its the most useful.

Re: Poll: Most useful path of magic?
 

1) if you clamhoard you spend 1-1 not 2-1.
2) battle mages with clams will do powerful spells requiring gem-burning endlessly.(others have to be supplied).
3) High level astral are the best around.
4)Achasic Record

low level astral is less than average (no summons-have personal luck and body ethereal and amulet of luck but not much more.)

Re: Poll: Most useful path of magic?
 

I voted Earth. It gives you money, even in the post-apocolyptic universe that Ermor is attempting to afflict on the world. It saves you gems on forging in any of several ways. It raises the protection of those who have it, and the blessing is absolutley vital for sacred mages.

It protects the user from the assassination spells designed to actually kill immortal pretenders. Earth is great to have for your character, it's great to have for your economy, and it even has one of the better Assassin spells under its belt (Earth Attack).

There just isn't any way that Earth isn't totally awesome.

---

Water is good though. Isn't it odd that the people who complain about the uselessness of Water also complain about the overpowered nature of the Clam strategy? Spending Water Gems is something which is trivial to do as fast as you get them for any Water Power as soon as you get Construction 2 until the end of time.

-Frank

Re: Poll: Most useful path of magic?
 

With Clams, the end use is Astral spells, so Water magic is playing only a supporting role. Does anyone play a Pretender with Water 9 and no Astral in a non-Astral nation? It sounds like a tough row to hoe.

Re: Poll: Most useful path of magic?
 

I voted for astral.

has some nice SC buffs - astral weapon/shield, body ethereal (4 early game), luck and very important twist fate.
Has some strong battle field spells such as doom, enslave mind, astral tempest.
Good summons (imo), I always find the harbringer and the angels good usage. With the right items and spell scripting they can be used as SCs. especially vs. death/blood thugs. And let's not forget abomination.
And good rituals useful for spying, assassination.
And last not least is wish.
I find it to be a complete spell school.

Re: Poll: Most useful path of magic?
 

I voted Astral, with Death and Air being very close behind. My reasoning for Astral is simply its versatility: Astral offers a very wide array of spells, ranging from Gateway/Teleport to amazing buggs (Will of the Fates). Astral also offers Antimagic and the Amulet of Antimagic, virtual lifesavers when fighting an Astral nation... and Astral also gives the Astral Focus, to go the other way around.

Add to that the Rings of Sorcery and Wizardry to get your other paths up and running (the Ring of Sorcery is especially nice, and not *too* expensive still), and it has to be Astral for me.

Re: Poll: Most useful path of magic?
 

In the late game, astral is the most essential school. To win any major battle, you want lots and lots of astral mages. The more, the merrier. Nothing else in equal numbers can really stand up to this. I learned this in spades with both my MP games that went past turn 100.

Plus there is Wish...

Re: Poll: Most useful path of magic?
 

How many people play with a Water 9 pretender just for the blessing? I've seen people seriously suggest a Water 9 Son of Niefel or Moloch for Vanheim, Marignon, Jotunheim, and Mictlan. I've seen people seriously suggest an Earth9/Water9 pretender for Pythium, Tien Chi, Marignon, and Man. Some of those are Astral nations, but some of those aren't. In every case, the goal is to get 2 actions per round out of Sacred troops or Leaders (or both).

A better question would be: how many people play with a Water 4 pretender in a nation with no Astral? In that case, I've still seen it. A Super Combatant Deit with no Water usually can't go under water, which makes him a weak military threat. Furthermore, a Water-free SC can't quicken themselves, which means that they either have to wear Boots or Armor made by another Water Mage, or they have to suck. Quickness is worth it just for the bonuses to attack and defense skills, the fact that it grants a whole set of extra attacks is just gravy.

Water is often presented as being somehow equivalent to Fire or Air as a blasting magic. It's not. Water doesn't get a decent Evocation until Evocation 4, and that only works under water. Water doesn't get a decent Evocation that works on land until Evocation 5, and that takes 3 Water to use (but Falling Frost is very good if you ever get people who can use it).

No. Water is and always has been about Construction (Clams, Boots of Quickness, Swords of Swiftness, Bottles of Living Water) and Alteration (Quickness, Frozen Heart). But in those arenas, it is very good. By the time you get Alteration 6, Atlantian PD is really deadly (Quickness, Frozen Heart, Frozen Heart, Frozen Heart, Frozen Heart). And that's where Water shines.

As far as weak sister colors, I'm going to have to say Nature. Vine Ogres have their day, but what is Nature supposed to do after that? Feed the real monsters that are provided by other powers?

-Frank

Re: Poll: Most useful path of magic?
 

Nature:
Regeneration Items and Spells
Reinviguration Items and Relief
Gift of Health
Charm
Vine Ogres
Lamias
Fairy Queens
Manakins, Mandragoras, Haunted Forest
Curse
Berserk
Poison


It is actually pretty good I'd say.

Re: Poll: Most useful path of magic?
 

Nature rocks, charm, lamais, call of the wild for early game for free wolf preduction early game. Gift of health, a bunch of really nice rituals, swarm is a useful spell as well. I like nature cause of their really nice rituals and decent battle magic.

Re: Poll: Most useful path of magic?
 

Fire and water are notably inferior to the other six.

Nature has a full house of useful buffs/debuffs AND a good selection of summons, as well as a handful of spells that mimic the abilities of other schools (eagle eyes, protection, panic).

Re: Poll: Most useful path of magic?
 

I think people have been playing with Zen's mods quite a bit. How soon we forget the power of Cloud Trapeze, Storms and Wrathful Skies.

Re: Poll: Most useful path of magic?
 

Holy: you get holy avenger (??????)

does anybody else thinks this spell is useless?

Re: Poll: Most useful path of magic?
 

I strongly disagree! Fire is an excellent path.

1) Excellent evocations.
2) Good summons, esp. with Blood... unfortunately KOEFs and ADs are limited, but they are still excellent. In a "fixed" game where Soul Contracts are weakened, fire is more powerful as it is required for Devils. Fire Snakes are also pretty good.
3) Best gems (15 gold each!) which makes fire mages a good investment for searching alone.
4) Excellent buffs and items (Fire Shield or Charcoal Shield on SCs or thugs are practically worth planning to get the path if you use SCs; Flaming Arrows alone is worth taking Fire as Tien Chi or Man, and considering it as Caelum). Fire has not many good buffs or items but the ones mentioned are good enough to make up for it.
5) Best set of spells/items that are AP, AOE, and/or anti-undead. Holy Pyre is all three, for example, and thus very useful in the early to mid game.
6) Additional effect (burning), like cold, as oppossed to Air and Earth which have no special effect.
7) Lastly - Artillery! Fire has fearsome artillery spells and even early-game artillery.

OTOH Air does not have any artillery spells.

Re: Poll: Most useful path of magic?
 

1.5 per round. But it is cumulative with Quickness. I took W9 as Marignon once, very effectively for the mages, but it was not great on flagellants in that game. Probably helped the Knights of the Chalice but I built few as my money went to Witch Hunters and xbows.

No... quickness on an SC is not at all essential. It is good on undead SCs, but I avoid it on live SCs due to fatigue, as quickness makes it almost impossible to overcome with reinvig items. Even my Ice Devils never cast Quickness if they get an artifact weapon rather than a Bloodthorn.

No nation should be without Nature, excepting Ermor. I build loads of Druids every game and they are always too busy (generally forging) to research. In addition to Oversways', Eagle Eyes (the air version always ends up on archers instead of the mage!), supply items, and dragonflies... Nature has no killer evocation (foul vapors stinks, if you pardon the pun), SC, or artillery but it is still exceptionally useful. I'm not claiming it is a strong path, but it does have many good (support) uses.

Re: Poll: Most useful path of magic?
 

Holy Avenger is useless 99% of the time.

The 1% is on your Neifel Jarl supercombattant =)

Re: Poll: Most useful path of magic?
 

I thought that some of the air spells also caused a lot of fatigue, or am I confused? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: Poll: Most useful path of magic?
 

I will never understand why people alchemize! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif I often buy any (non-living) gem type at 16-17 gold per gem...but then again, I usually take order3 as well...


Oh, by the way: Earth rocks!

It might not be top, but if I must get along with it alone, its ok: Good range of items offensive and defensive and misc (eg. Gate cleavers are not bad!), many buff spells (legion of steel, invulnerability), nice offensive spells (blade wind, petrify) and ok summoning (mech men). It is probably not the best in all those categories, but at least it has something useful for each category, be it fighting armies or SCs.

Re: Poll: Most useful path of magic?
 

I voted for astral mostly for the versatility reasons stated earlier. Plus I know its a very high level spell but Strands of Arcane Power with arco I find to be very useful. If you are a way behind in gem income for whatever reason (or just want to jump ahead) that spell will help an amazing amount even if it does just find low-level sites typically. Also combine that with arcane nexus and wish if its still enabled and you will be rolling in the gems!

@Agrajag Yes air does cause stun / fatigue damage with its thunderstrike spell - making it quite useful indeed justifying its extra fatigue cost.

Re: Poll: Most useful path of magic?
 

Why?

Re: Poll: Most useful path of magic?
 

One weakness of fire is that it doesn't synergise with astral magic very well, unlike the rest of the magic paths.

Astral fires isn't very good, and I've never found any reason to cast inner sun. I don't think there are even any non-unique fire/astral items.

Re: Poll: Most useful path of magic?
 

It's one chassis that has sufficient HP and holy 3. (Holy 4 when prophetized.) Thus it can take the hits, especially with regeneration... Not that Holy Avenger still is worthwhile usually.

EDIT: Niefel Jarl, that is.

Re: Poll: Most useful path of magic?
 

Astral Fires is extremely powerful if you have high level of the required path. Check out the "+" signs in its description.

Re: Poll: Most useful path of magic?
 

Lightning bolt is the ultimate damage spell.
what you want in this kind of spell?
Damage? LB has damage penetration.
Precition? LB has added precition i think +2(fire spells have not), plus if you can cast it you already have +2 prec from 2 levels of air. with prec 10 you get 14 prec casting this, so it will hit target.

It´s not balanced.
plus, if you play with caelum they get even more prec racially. These guys never miss.

Re: Poll: Most useful path of magic?
 

How about AoE?
I'd like that too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Poll: Most useful path of magic?
 

If you like a big area of effect, go for Shockwave, available at the same level of research. Shockwave and armies do not mix, however, but the spell is deadly when cast by a lone mage. I do not believe the spell can kill the caster, if memory serves (at least my non Shock Resistant casters had no trouble with their own Shockwaves).

Lightning Bolt is actually Precision +7, for a net total of 18 precision for the weakest mage able to cast the spell (via an air gem). Quite good, and still decent even in a storm. Air does seem to be lacking in summons however: besides Air Queens, I do not believe Air has any "good" summon that can be actually used in an army (the Crows will not do you much good in a fight). There will be only three Air Queens, so if you want Air summons, you'd better hurry. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif (I am, of course, not saying that Air is not a potent school)

Re: Poll: Most useful path of magic?
 

Shockwave can definately rebound on the caster. My Phoenixes routinely kill themselves with it, not that I particularly care.

-Frank

Re: Poll: Most useful path of magic?
 

Griffin here:

I voted for death:

Globals(!):
-Burden of time
-Utterdark <---!
-Storm
-Well of misery

Battle-Summonings:
-Raise Skelton(the ultimate way to get indies early withn 2-3 Dusk Elders)
-Raise Dead

Evocation:
-Shadow Bolt
-Shadow Blast*jeheee*

Items:
-Many many items that raise deathmagic

Soul -forgot the name-, that wich drains souls!

Imortal summonings...

I really like deathmagic.

...and many ways to link it with other pathes!

Re: Poll: Most useful path of magic?
 

fire is cool!
it gives all fire commanders the abilities to have more units in thier army

Re: Poll: Most useful path of magic?
 

Poor water...
0%
....
All it has going for it is clams,quickness,and frozen heart.....