Max Forge Bonus
 

I was just messin about in a sp game when i wondered what the max forge bonus is (if there is any) i mean i doubt there is a 100% bonus but im not sure, consider this: ulmish master smith with hammer of the forge lord in a steel oven province with forge of the ancients cast. this would easily exceed the 100% mark (though i doubt its possible) but was just wondering what you guys think the max bonus is?

Re: Max Forge Bonus
 

I recall something about the cap being at 90%, and high bonus do not directly stack (so -50% + -50% wouldn't bring you all the way to the cap). I don't recall how they stack exactly, though.

Re: Max Forge Bonus
 

give a hammer of forge lord to a dwarven smith while the forge of the ancients is up.... that comes out to what, something like 90%

Re: Max Forge Bonus
 

i just wasnt sure what the max was ,if only there was none. then i could get gems for forging items

Re: Max Forge Bonus
 

The best possibility is to be able to forge items with one gem. Mind you, Robes of Invlunerability or Soul Contracts for one gem/slave are awfully powerful in themselves...

Re: Max Forge Bonus
 

only problem is even with forge of the ancients you still usually need some empowerment to forge most things (in my current sp game i have a smith making me blood thorns and 2 slaves each (i used summons and my pretender to get slaves)

Re: Max Forge Bonus
 

An Ulmish Master Smith with a regular dwarven hammer and 20 percent construction bonus from a site like The Steel Ovens or Banefire Forge hits 70 right off the bat, at which point hammers cost 6 gems and so forth. I'm not sure if bonuses from multiple sites in the same province stack, but if they do and you get more than one construction bonus site in the same place, it'd be a massive imbalance.

Edi

Re: Max Forge Bonus
 

I can confirm that you can achieve the ultimate forge bonus (forging 80-gem items for one gem) with the following:

Forge of the Ancients (immediately halves all forging costs)
Ulmish Master Smith (25% forge bonus)
Hammer of the Forge Lord (50% forge bonus)
The Steel Ovens (20% forge bonus)

I don't quite know how it works though - that's a 95% bonus after initial halving, which means that 80-gem items should cost 0.05x40 = 2 gems. But they don't, they only cost 1 gem. Weird.

CC
P.S. Apologies in advance if the above is no longer correct - it's quite a few patches ago that I did it. It may have been fixed since then.

Re: Max Forge Bonus
 

i seem to remember having a high forge bonus did weird things (sometimes it cost 3, sometimes 2, sometimes 5) but i also tested a few patches ago

Re: Max Forge Bonus
 

It wouldn't have been such an imbalance had there been a cap for "economy" items, such as fever fetish, blood stone, soul contract and such.
Currently this has the potential of simply breaking the game. Who needs provinces/economy anyway when you can alchemize you fire gems after spamming fetishes.

I really dislike this aspect of the game, for the be competitive I'm obliged to abuse it.
I hope the devs will do something about it in DOM-III. I prefer the cap solution then increasing cost and requirements. Because it would eliminate all possible ways to reach a crazy forge bonus and spam items.

Re: Max Forge Bonus
 

ive only used it in sp though, too risky for multiplayer me thinkies (it is for me atleast)

Re: Max Forge Bonus
 

Risky??

Re: Max Forge Bonus
 

if you dont get enough gems initially you wont be able to pull it off quickly enough and there is a very good chance you will get stomped

Re: Max Forge Bonus
 

It certainly depends on the map size played on: With a medium sized map (less than ~16 provinces per participating nation) hoarding gem generating items should not be viable, as the resources should be rather required immediately to ward off the enemies.

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Furthermore, what are realistic forge bonuses achievable in reasonably sized games? Master Smiths? Nah, I would not want to play Ulm in MP unless the map is really small and you cannot rely on finding the steel oven, can you?

Re: Max Forge Bonus
 

I agree that hoarding depends on the map size.
Unfortunately for me it's most prominent in large maps, which happen to be my favorites both for SP and MP.

Hoarding can be done by most nations, I don't think it's only limited to Ulm. And for the long run it's worth it even with zero forge bonus.

My experience from MP is that saving water, fire and earth (blood) gems exclusively for hoarding pays off. Now I don't like this, but since it's so effective and everyone else is probably doing the same I don't have much choice.

This can be solved by house rules for limiting hoarding, I just think that enforcing those rules through the game would be much better.

Re: Max Forge Bonus
 

The second paragraph was rather generally asking for the maximal forge bonus attainable in a real MP game...but I geuess it is an unsound question anyway...

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I still fail to understand why some people prefer huge maps (which, for me, means anything above 25 provinces per participating player)? Of course, it is a good thing that everyone plays as they like, but I am curious and just want to understand it: What is the idea behind choosing maps that are so large?
- If I prefer endgame magic, I can choose easy research...
- If I prefer endless magical supplies, I increase the magic site frequency...
- If I want abundance of resources, I use the 'rich world setting'...

So what's left? More room for long-term strategic maneuvers due to slow moving troops? No, because long-run games feature all those fast moving SCs or army-teleporting spells, making 1-province movers almost obsolete. So maybe the benefit lies in the distance between players, similar to what Atlantis (the hoarder per se), Ryleh and Oceania achieve: the safety to implement a long-term plan. Is this so? Do big maps simply allow peaceful buildups?

I mean, I do understand that people like it to build-up things. If one has a grand scheme then one also wants enough time & peace to implement it. Getting a good plan foiled by a fellow player is certainly one of the most unpleasant experiences, right? If I play Caelum, I try my best diplomatics to make sure that I am left alone as long as possible to boost my research, but usually my enemies wont allow this. But isnt this the point of a strategy game, to know when ones time is right to reach out and grasp the world? Isnt it the essence of strategy to anticipate and thwart each others plans?

Re: Max Forge Bonus
 

I'm with Chazar on this one. Since the micromanagement of dom2 is already significant I am loathe to increase it with a large map. As for getting the chance to try large-scale long term strats - I only allow myself that luxury as a reward for having successfully survived The Winnowing (what I refer to the first one or two rounds of wars in a game) by politics or force.

Dont get me wrong, I'm not saying that ppl shouldnt play on large maps. Just that I am right along with Chazar in my confusion over why people choose it.

Re: Max Forge Bonus
 

And it's funny listening to some of the players who once loved huge maps when they turn around and say they dread their turns, are starting to hate Dom2, etc, all because of a couple Faerun or World map games. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Max Forge Bonus
 

I'm not sure why I prefer large maps.
Maybe it's the sense of attachment to the virual empire or the epic feeling the works for me.

Its the same for me in all strat games. Can't help it doc. *** sob ***
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Max Forge Bonus
 

I am surprised that the main problem why large maps are unplayable has not even yet been mentioned:

The low unit limit!

I once tested it and iirc even Indy troops count towards it.
The unitlimit is only 32k-something.

This limit can even be too small for medium-sized games like on the cradle map but there the risk is really low.
On Faerun though it is very high.

If one of those Nations/Themes does well it is dangerous:
1. Ermor AE
2. Mictlan Blood heavy + using lots of slaves for patrolling
3. Pan CW/ Pan with Maenads
4. Ctis Dtombs
5. Ulm BF relying on Vampire counts

If Ermor AE controls e.g. 100-150 Provinces on Faerun (which is only 1/4-1/3 of the map) it should get at least 1000 freespawns per turn.
You see how easy they alone can exceed the unit limit

Re: Max Forge Bonus
 

and what if someone decides to use that nation replacement mod and then you get multiple undead ermors :p

Re: Max Forge Bonus
 

I don't think the unit size limit is too bad, but I have never played Faerun with Ermor in a leading position... It is mostly a question of playstyle IMO, however, technical things shouldn't limit those.

re:nation replacement mod
Unfortunately, I couldn't make that. No special effects of dominion, or any nation-spesific special qualities, can be changed. This includes undead spawning, ability or requirent for Blood Sacrifice, halved temple/lab prices, Constriction, spawning of R'lyeh freaks, etc. Starting summons and heat preference can be changed, but other than that, most abilities can't be modded.

In Dominions III most of these abilities become moddable.

Re: Max Forge Bonus
 

but isnt there a mod that lets there be more than one of each nation/theme (replaces others)