Death scales/Gift of Natures Bounty
 

Does anyone know, offhand, how the combination of death 1 and gift of natures bounty will go? Death 2? Death 3?

Am getting close to testing it with Death 1, but I bet someone here has already done it fairly thoroughly so, please, share your insight. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I've avoided playing death scales in the past, except of course with Ermor, where it doesn't hurt. This time I'm Abysia, however, and it does hurt, although not as badly as I gather it would with most nations. I took several negative scales to get a nice bless effect for my lava warriors (fire 9/nature 9) and the lava warriors rock, but the scales are definitely a pain, after my initial expansion binge slowed down I notice my income is sinking every round, and of course maintainence is not... so I'm hoping to see gift of natures bounty at least neutralise that effect, if not turn it around.

Also, sort of conceptually related, Ermor (of course) has a couple of very nasty globals up. The one that makes everyone age quickly, of course, and also the diseased air thing, so it's a double whammy. I just got gift of health up to counter it, barely in time (about 90% of my units were afflicted.) So that seems to mostly take care of it, although every turn I have several sick units, at least it's different ones each time and they aren't dying. But I'm wondering if that was the best choice. I could have dispelled their globals more quickly, then got gift up anyway at a later date, but I saved the astral gems to make nature with for gift ASAP instead. The rationale being that leaving Ermors globals in place, but defeating them as regards my own troops only with gift, would be advantageous as the other nations would still be afflicted. Of course in my mind gift was defeating them, but in fact, it's still affecting me too, just not so badly as everyone else. And I'm a little worried that by the time I find Ermor they'll have gobbled up so many AI players I won't stand a chance against them... what do you think?

Re: Death scales/Gift of Natures Bounty
 

Not sure of the effects of GoNB/death but those lava warriors would do far better with n9/e9 (still deadly, higher prot and good reinvig)

Re: Death scales/Gift of Natures Bounty
 

Well, for the record, GoNB is NOT enough to overcome Death 1. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif I should have paid closer attention before I cast it for comparison, but population is still clearly going down every turn with it up.

Which means back to the drawing board, end of game essentially. I'm playing a rather large map and while I got a nice start, my income is still sinking, and it's already so low that I can barely maintain my army, no chance of expanding it. And my army is not sufficient to hold what I have, really, at this point.

I might well try that n9/e9 pretender if I can pull one off without taking death scales. I've run the earthmama chassis e5/n9 before with another nation and did very well.

This was the, son of the desert sun(?) - the one that summons lions in battle. Thought I'd try something different. Very cool, but if I can't figure out a way to get it without going to death scales it's just not workable on anything but a small map I guess.

You really think that e9 bless would be better on lava warriors than f9? I figured dual-wielded flaming maces would be pretty awesome, and you know what? THEY ARE http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif They shred anything that gets in their way mighty quick... I don't think I've ever seen knights go down that quick, and ethereal undead don't stand a chance...

Oh yeah, before you think I shouldn't have so much trouble getting this without death scales, keep in mind also that it's a map with a LOT of water, water cult is really a requirement to stand a chance with a land nation as a result, and since lava warriors are home province only I want better admin than the guard tower as well. I'd prefer the fortified city, wound up with the fortress to make it work... had disorder 2 sloth 1 heat 3 death 1... maybe disorder 2 sloth 2 would be bearable though.

Re: Death scales/Gift of Natures Bounty
 

The turmoil scale is the reason you couldn't afford your troops, not the death scale. A scale of death 1 might start to have a noticeable effect on your home province after about 60 turns. In your other provinces, you'll have to wait even longer before the negative effects start to creep up. On the other hand, by taking turmoil 2, you decreased your total income by almost 30% compared to order 3.

Re: Death scales/Gift of Natures Bounty
 

I know the turmoil lowers income, but it should lower it to a point then stabilise. Since I had good dominion spread at the beginning, most of my provinces were already showing turmoil from it before I conquered them. My income was going down every turn, however, and so was the population. One province next to my capital was down to 310 people...

Re: Death scales/Gift of Natures Bounty
 

Turmoil is by far the biggest income killer compared to any other scales.

Re: Death scales/Gift of Natures Bounty
 

For the record, scales of Death 1 would be 13% less income than Death 0 after 60 turns. Death 2 is 25% less, and Death 3 is 34% less.

Re: Death scales/Gift of Natures Bounty
 

Would it be correct to extrapolate that means about 240 turns to take income to absolute zero? If that's more or less correct it means that in a large map game where that many turns are to be expected, even death 1 is too much unless you're playing undead. Ermors themes can handle this of course, I haven't played the Ctis and Pangea undead themes enough to know if they can or not though.

I'm not sure if it's by percentage or an absolute value, but with death one and GoNB up, my lowest population province went from 320 to 310 population the next month. A rough guess would say 31 more turns to 0 pop, but that might be off depending on how it's calculated. Should have kept a tally for a few turns before I cast it to see how much it changed, but sadly didn't think of that until after. At any rate, GoNB isn't enough to reverse it, and even though it wasn't that far into the game, I was already noticing the provinces I had marked in mind for blood hunting later were swiftly falling under the 5000 mark.

Re: Death scales/Gift of Natures Bounty
 

No, it's a multiplicative effect. Each point of growth/death raises or lowers province population by 0.2% per month. Also, each point raises or lowers province income (which is directly derived from population, for most provinces) 2% per month.
So, the longer you go, the less you decrease in terms of absolute income.

As far as GoNB, I've never cast it, but I always assumed it moved your scales towards growth? In any case, give it a few turns to have an effect.

Re: Death scales/Gift of Natures Bounty
 

Not at all. Every point of order increases your income by 7%. Every point of turmoil decreases your income by 7%. This is a constant effect that depends solely on the current order/turmoil scale in a given province.

Every level of the death scale reduces population by 0.2% per turn. That province likely only started with a few hundred people.

Re: Death scales/Gift of Natures Bounty
 

Thanks for the explanation. Trying to make sure I understand this correctly. Turmoil 2 causes income to drop 14% *every turn*? Not to a stable state 14% below what it would be otherwise? Is that what you're saying?

That province started with several thousand actually (8k+, IIRC,) but it had a rather nasty event early on that knocked it down to about 1500. It was still going down 10 every turn two months after GoNB took effect. 320*.002=.64, it's a bit late for me to by doing math but that looks right? Rounded up to 1, I was still losing population an order of magnitude faster than that. I know at least one of those nasty globals Ermor had up increases turmoil, which now that I think about it had to be part of why my income was dropping so quickly. I don't remember anything in the game text about it increasing death as well, though, however it would certainly make sense for it to do that...

Re: Death scales/Gift of Natures Bounty
 

Did you not say that Ermor casted Burden of Time?

That is the source of your problems. Burden of time will kill all population quite quickly.

Re: Death scales/Gift of Natures Bounty
 

Good catch, Folket! It's probably a global of some kind that kills your population. Death scale has constant effect, but it's a slow process.

Arker - Turmoil has it's effect on constantly, and has the same effect on the same population whether it has affected that province for 1 turn or for 100.
Graeme Dice answered your question thinking of what would happen e.g. in your capital, where the scales work from the beginning. In there, the income is constantly lowered by 7% per Turmoil scale. However, your question was more in regards to conquered provinces where your dominion spreads - in those cases, the income drops from the 100% it starts from, goes down, and then stays constant.

As many people have said, any Turmoil is very, VERY bad - compared to Order 3! Of course, that's very bad. However, Death scale is compared to a neutral case, not to Growth 3. Most people who frequent these forums take Order 3 for all nations which need money, which only excludes Ashen Empire, Soul Gate and Carrion Woods. If you were to play in MP game against one of them, you'd lose because they'd have more money than you. In SP, it isn't that bad, because higher levels of AIs will have more money than you any way, and you'll have to rely on other things to destroy them. High-quality troops, perhaps better magical support, maybe assassinations or spies causing unrest, etc.

Re: Death scales/Gift of Natures Bounty
 

Yes, Ermor has Burden of Time and Foul Air up.

I have Gift of Health and Gift of Natures Bounty. Obviously my initial assumption that these would allow me to weather the effect of Ermors globals while letting them kill off the competition was incorrect. I shall have to go back to that game and get them dispelled as quickly as I can. I think I can get both of them dispelled in four turns or so from where I left off. Too tired now though, will try it tomorrow.

They really use Order 3 for everything? Interesting. I'm playing with the CB mod, does that effect it?

Re: Death scales/Gift of Natures Bounty
 

I'm not sure. I think the logic is that because Order 3 lowers the chance of events, Misfortune is a bit safer way to get more points - and as Luck is fickle any way, it's not worth spending precious points for it. As it happens, temples and labs being destroyed in the early game, as well as early floods, are common complaints... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I couldn't beat the skilled players with anything else than Order (or with the same designs!), but the other forums (Quarter to Three, the of the French forums) might use different strategies. I don't know because I don't read them, but I have a vague memory of some different strategies being mentioned...

Re: Death scales/Gift of Natures Bounty
 

Turmoil 2 provides an income that is 14% below a balanced scale, and 30% less than order 3. It doesn't have a cumulative effect, but the difference is enough that you won't be able to buy any troops with a turmoil scale due to upkeep.

If Ermor cast Burden of Time, then populations worldwide drop incredibly quickly. That's the cause of your population loss, not the death scale.

Re: Death scales/Gift of Natures Bounty
 

Yes. I never play with a turmoil scale unless the theme of the nation requires it, and I've only played a single game as T'ien C'hi Spring and Autumn.

Re: Death scales/Gift of Natures Bounty
 

One case where it is a good idea to get Turmoil is when playing AE or SG Ermor http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif
Turmoil-3 Sloth-3 Cold-3 Death-3 Luck-3 Magic-3 is the only way I play either theme.
(And while the constant stream of militia/fanatics events are a nuisance, the stream of +X gold events makes up for it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif [not to mention the +gems events, which can be very good considering Ermor uses gems in stead of money])

Re: Death scales/Gift of Natures Bounty
 

Remove Burden of Time first... this is one nasty spell. Gift of Health will help, but is no balance for the damage it's doing.


My guess is Ermor is being done by a human player OR you haven't patched the game. I rarely see Ermor cast Burden of Time with the recent patches. If Ermor is human then you have good reason to worry.

Re: Death scales/Gift of Natures Bounty
 

Yes, that's one thing I've learned. I was seriously underestimating the effect of Ermors globals. I still don't know if the gift spells would offset the death scale or not, and I'm not sure I'll even find out. I wound up making a new pretender based on some suggestions here and I'm liking him so much I don't feel like reviving the other game right now.


Nope, it's AI. With the latest patch and the CB mod. And Ermor almost always seems to cast that in my experience, except when they get taken out very early. In the past I scrambled to dispell it. Sometimes another AI dispelled it first. But this time I thought I'd let it kill the opposition while I countered it with Gifts instead... obviously I learned that's not the way to do it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Death scales/Gift of Natures Bounty
 

I guess the reason this surprises me is that I remember reading the general strategy was to use powerful summoned troops instead of nationals as much as possible. You don't need gold for them, right?

Re: Death scales/Gift of Natures Bounty
 

If summoned troops didn't need gold then national troops would be used a lot more -- it's just that they need it for expensive mages to research the spells, find the gems, and do the actual summoning instead of for recruiting and maintaining the troops themselves.

Re: Death scales/Gift of Natures Bounty
 

Arker, was not the original purpose of this thread to see if Nature's Bounty offset Death 1 or more? Are you still going to test that with the new game you are making, or have you given up on that experiment? I am very interested in your findings, actually. I hope you get back to it. I'm also curious if Growth 3 and Nature's Bounty is enough to offset Burden of Time, but I guess that isn't a test that can be set up. It would be neat, as you stated, if one could use that to his advantage to let an opponent kill off all the opposition for oneself.

=$= Big J Money =$=

Re: Death scales/Gift of Natures Bounty
 

Nature's Bounty doesn't effect growth scale- just multiplies income based on positive dominion candles in a province.

Re: Death scales/Gift of Natures Bounty
 

I've got the game saved, I imagine I'll come back to it eventually, dispell Ermors enchantments, and track population growth for a few turns. I'm just a bit busy exploring the wonderful new world of order 3 at the moment http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

If I do I'll be sure to post again to this thread with what I find out.

I don't know why it wouldn't be possible test your other hypothesis... set it up and let us know http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Or I'll probably check it out myself, eventually, if you don't.

Based on what I've seen so far, my prediction is no, by the way. But I could be wrong...

Re: Death scales/Gift of Natures Bounty
 

I'm wondering if anyone out there has stats on Nature's Bounty. I have been playing with Growth 3, and never ever use that spell (though I could easily cast it; I just have other priority globals). I wonder if it would help my game better than the other globals I use. Something tells me no. By the time I get that spell up and watch population rocket, it doesn't really matter how much extra production and gold it brings me, because that's probably the point in the game where summoned armies paid for with gems rule the day.

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