Capturable Racial Techs
 

I just tried out a suggestion someone posted awhile back, and it seems to work out if someone else wants to try it out. I changed a few of the racial techs, crystalline, organic, and temporal so that the theoretical techs lead to a non racially unique 1 point intermediate tech which leads to the applied and weapons techs. Ie for cystalline: crystallurgy->crystalline intermediate->cyrstalline weapons/cyrstalline technology. I removed the racial flags from the applied and weapons techs also. Works out pretty well I can capture enemy techs but I cannot research them on my own or improve on them.

I know some people probably won't like this idea, but I think it's kinda useful to be able to reproduce and repair existing enemy ships that you've captured. I'm not sure if capturing say crystalline armor would allow you access to cyrstalline facilities or not. But If so that can probably be fixed by having the facilities use a second tech requirement that does have the racial flag set.

Re: Capturable Racial Techs
 

Sounds like something with interesting possibilities.

Re: Capturable Racial Techs
 

Could you expand on this a little Jc. I do not understand how you can set it up to be able to repair them but not research them. I thought you had to be able to know the tech before you could repair it.

Are you saying you can learn the knowledge in the area only through capturing the item and analyzing it, but not through your regular research? I am interested in how this is done.

Does capturing a ship with say crystal armor allow you to build shard cannons, or do you have to capture each item?

Geo

Re: Capturable Racial Techs
 

Tech A is a racial tech
Tech B is a normal tech that requires tech A, level 1
Tech C is a normal tech that requires tech B, level 1

Results:

-you CANNOT steal tech A
-you CANNOT research tech A

-you CAN steal tech B
-you CANNOT research tech B

-you CAN steal tech C
-you CAN research tech C, if you have stolen tech B, level 1

Re: Capturable Racial Techs
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
Tech A is a racial tech
Tech B is a normal tech that requires tech A, level 1
Tech C is a normal tech that requires tech B, level 1

Results:

-you CANNOT steal tech A
-you CANNOT research tech A

-you CAN steal tech B
-you CANNOT research tech B

-you CAN steal tech C
-you CAN research tech C, if you have stolen tech B, level 1<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok I think it must have been you I got the idea from SJ? I haven't seen that I can research tech C but I haven't tried to acquire B through espionage or other means yet. I can't currently repair Xiati ships since most of them use level 3 temporal weapons, but one more capture oughta fix that. Anyhow here's a couple of examples of what I did.

This is the unique racial tech that opens up the entire field, I've left it alone.

Name := Temporal Studies
Group := Theoretical Science
Description := The study of temporal phenomenon and manipulation.
Maximum Level := 2
Level Cost := 50000
Start Level := 0

These are the intermediate tech fields that open up the actual fields that allow you to build temporal facilities and weapons. The racial area flags are set to 0. They depend on the above unqiue theoretical racial tech.

Note: most racial areas only need one intermediate tech, but the temporal field had the actual weapons and technology techs keyed off of two different levels in temporal studies so I tried to keep it the same.

Name := Temporal Tech Intermediate
Group := Applied Science
Description := Junk Tech Level
Maximum Level := 1
Level Cost := 1
Start Level := 0
Raise Level := 0
Racial Area := 0
Unique Area := 0
Can Be Removed := True
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Temporal Studies
Tech Level Req 1 := 1

Name := Temporal Weapons Intermediate
Group := Applied Science
Description := Junk Tech Level
Maximum Level := 1
Level Cost := 1
Start Level := 0
Raise Level := 0
Racial Area := 0
Unique Area := 0
Can Be Removed := True
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Temporal Studies
Tech Level Req 1 := 2
Raise Level := 0
Racial Area := 3
Unique Area := 0
Can Be Removed := False
Number of Tech Req := 0

These are the actual tech fields that give you the goodies. Again I set the racial flags for these to zero.
Name := Temporal Technology
Group := Applied Science
Description := Science of altering time streams to produce specific results.
Maximum Level := 6
Level Cost := 50000
Start Level := 0
Raise Level := 0
Racial Area := 0
Unique Area := 0
Can Be Removed := True
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Temporal Tech Intermediate
Tech Level Req 1 := 1

Name := Temporal Weapons
Group := Weapon Technology
Description := Weapons which use temporal manipulation to cause ill effects.
Maximum Level := 7
Level Cost := 25000
Start Level := 0
Raise Level := 0
Racial Area := 0
Unique Area := 0
Can Be Removed := True
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Temporal Weapons Intermediate
Tech Level Req 1 := 1

All you have to do is remember to add the intermediate techs to the AI's research queues. I left the psychic and relgious fields alone since that seems to be more reliant on the actual biology and deep seated beliefes of the race. Would seem sort of hard to reverse engineer those techs. This does have some weird side effects if you play with the high tech player setting, you have access to all the unique racial weapons and techs. So far its working ok for me I can capture enemy ships with racial techs reverse engineer the first few and I can build ships using their techs which hopefully means I can repair damaged ships I capture or upgrade captured ships with better engines and sensors/ECM, which was pretty much my original intention

Here's what I did with the organic and crystalline techs.

Name := Crystallurgy
Group := Theoretical Science
Description := The science of manipulating crystals and their resonance waves.
Maximum Level := 1
Level Cost := 50000
Start Level := 0
Raise Level := 0
Racial Area := 4
Unique Area := 0
Can Be Removed := False
Number of Tech Req := 0

Name := Crystal Intermediate
Group := Applied Science
Description := Junk Tech Level
Maximum Level := 1
Level Cost := 1
Start Level := 0
Raise Level := 0
Racial Area := 0
Unique Area := 0
Can Be Removed := True
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Crystallurgy
Tech Level Req 1 := 1

Name := Crystalline Technology
Group := Applied Science
Description := Science of using crystalline materials for construction of devices.
Maximum Level := 6
Level Cost := 50000
Start Level := 0
Raise Level := 0
Racial Area := 0
Unique Area := 0
Can Be Removed := True
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Crystal Intermediate
Tech Level Req 1 := 1

Name := Crystalline Weapons
Group := Weapon Technology
Description := Weapons using the directed resonance waves of crystals.
Maximum Level := 10
Level Cost := 20000
Start Level := 0
Raise Level := 0
Racial Area := 0
Unique Area := 0
Can Be Removed := True
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Crystal Intermediate
Tech Level Req 1 := 1

Name := Organic Engineering
Group := Theoretical Science
Description := The technology of designing and creating organic forms to serve specific needs.
Maximum Level := 1
Level Cost := 50000
Start Level := 0
Raise Level := 0
Racial Area := 5
Unique Area := 0
Can Be Removed := False
Number of Tech Req := 0

Name := Organic Intermediate
Group := Applied Science
Description := Junk Tech Level
Maximum Level := 1
Level Cost := 1
Start Level := 0
Raise Level := 0
Racial Area := 0
Unique Area := 0
Can Be Removed := True
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Organic Engineering
Tech Level Req 1 := 1

Name := Organic Technology
Group := Applied Science
Description := Advanced utilization of organic forms to create structures.
Maximum Level := 6
Level Cost := 50000
Start Level := 0
Raise Level := 0
Racial Area := 0
Unique Area := 0
Can Be Removed := True
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Organic Intermediate
Tech Level Req 1 := 1

Name := Organic Weapons
Group := Weapon Technology
Description := Weapons using organic materials and delivery methods.
Maximum Level := 10
Level Cost := 20000
Start Level := 0
Raise Level := 0
Racial Area := 0
Unique Area := 0
Can Be Removed := True
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Organic Intermediate
Tech Level Req 1 := 1

Re: Capturable Racial Techs
 

Isn't that penalizing the race that chooses the Organic or Crystal trait? They cannot benefit as much as a race that did not choose one.
It would be more work but less unbalancing if each level of the weapons and technologies needed the intermeadiate level. It could be the same level so the AI wouldn't have to research 10 levels of junk for the shard weapons. This way you could only capture part of the entire tech tree.
Since this is only going to be used by a human player it seems that you should limit the gain.

Re: Capturable Racial Techs
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Marty Ward:
Isn't that penalizing the race that chooses the Organic or Crystal trait? They cannot benefit as much as a race that did not choose one.
It would be more work but less unbalancing if each level of the weapons and technologies needed the intermeadiate level. It could be the same level so the AI wouldn't have to research 10 levels of junk for the shard weapons. This way you could only capture part of the entire tech tree.
Since this is only going to be used by a human player it seems that you should limit the gain.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I agree it's probably a bit unbalancing, but I'm not sure I understand you're proposed solution. When I capture say a Xiati ship I can only get one tech level in temporal weapons from analyzing it, and a maximum of whatever tech level weapon that ship was using. I guess another balance issue is that AI will not analyze ships and utilize the new technologies. But this is pretty much a problem with a capture and analyze oriented race or strategy already, since you can allocate more of your colonies towards intel or resource production instead of research.

Once you open up a field by researching a prerequisite you can research all levels in that field. I don't think you can tag each individual level with a requirement. Or are you suggesting something like a seperate tech level for each weapon ie Crystal Weapons Level 2 which is a seperate tech but requires the intermediate tech and Crystal Weapons Level 1? It could be done but frankly since I'm only using this mod for myself right now and I can make myself follow some guidelines I don't think I want to edit the AI research queue to add in all the seperate tech levels. This idea would probably be good for a multiplayer Version of a mod or one for general distribution, but I was just posting what I did so other people could see that it worked and could try it out for themselves. Not saying this a bad idea or anything just that since I'm only using it for myself right now I don't feel like doing the extra work. However, what I might do to even things out is to lower the costs of the racial traits to access organic, cystal, and temporal tech and boost the AI's other characteristics.


[This message has been edited by jc173 (edited 16 May 2001).]

Re: Capturable Racial Techs
 

I was thinking you could limit what you could steal and research. Maybe grouping the techs, say if you capture shard I you could research to shard IV.
I was thinking that the intermediate tech would be a requirement of each level, or group of levels, in addition to whatever else is already required. Since the AI is going research the intermediate level anyway it shouldn't matter if every level needs it, it only needs to be researched one time. You wouldn't change the research files you would change the tech file.

Re: Capturable Racial Techs
 

Any thoughts on the MOO2 tech level that allowed you to alter your race DNA and change some of it's abilities.
That you be interesting if you allow say 2000 points later in the game. So then when you get the tech level, you are able to pick some new racial ability.

Re: Capturable Racial Techs
 

Ah ok I see your point, but don't worry it's not that bad. In my current game I have "acquired" temporal weapons up to level 2. I can use the level 1 and 2 weapons and repair them, but I cannot actually research temporal weapons. It doesn't even show up in my reasearch window as an option. Now if I were to somehow steal the intermediate tech Temporal Weapons Intermediate I could probably research new levels of temporal weapons, but as is I can only gain levels by stealing them (espionage) or by capturing and analyzing.

Re: Capturable Racial Techs
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aussie Gamer:
Any thoughts on the MOO2 tech level that allowed you to alter your race DNA and change some of it's abilities.
That you be interesting if you allow say 2000 points later in the game. So then when you get the tech level, you are able to pick some new racial ability.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting, but it would need to be hardcoded. Also what if you initially chose organic than swapped to cyrstaline, would you lose your tech levels in organic?

Re: Capturable Racial Techs
 

Please Jc173, can you post a zipfile with the modifications needed to allow racial techs capturable ? I tried to make myself the suggested modifications but surely I made something wrong, beaucause it doesn't works.I wish to add and test this feature to my games.
Thanks and best regards.

Re: Capturable Racial Techs
 

Please Jc173, can you post a zipfile with the modifications needed to allow racial techs capturable ? I tried to make myself the suggested modifications but surely I made something wrong, beaucause it doesn't works.I wish to add and test this feature to my games.
Thanks and best regards.

Sorry I posted two time the same reply, some problem with my damned server.

[This message has been edited by Marco (edited 16 May 2001).]

Re: Capturable Racial Techs
 

I can post the techarea.txt file in the mod archive which is where the major changes are, but I don't think my AI files will be useful for you since I'm using a heavily and scrambled up modified Version of the TDM modpack as the basis for most of my races. You don't need a new components file, just the techarea file. After you copy that into the proper directory all you need to do is to add the intermediate techs to the appropriate races. There are a at least two good tools for that in the mod archive.

Re: Capturable Racial Techs
 

Thanks.

Re: Capturable Racial Techs
 

Is the intermediate tech area really necessary? It should work the same without it, except the previously racial techs wouldn't be able to be researched if the intermediate is stolen through ship capture (if any components come from the intermediate) or Tech Espionage ops. Besides, the racial techs are supposed to be something that only certain races can comprehend (at least IMHO), thus analyzing components will allow you to see where everything fits, but not actually how it works (a la "Contact"... see alien blueprint, build machine on alien blueprint, have no clue what machine on alien blueprint does).

Anyway, looks quite interesting... I'll add it to my mental list of things to eventually (read: in two or so years) put in the mod I'll eventually (read: in two or so years, minus two or so weeks) make. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Capturable Racial Techs
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Will:
Is the intermediate tech area really necessary? It should work the same without it, except the previously racial techs wouldn't be able to be researched if the intermediate is stolen through ship capture (if any components come from the intermediate) or Tech Espionage ops. Besides, the racial techs are supposed to be something that only certain races can comprehend (at least IMHO), thus analyzing components will allow you to see where everything fits, but not actually how it works (a la "Contact"... see alien blueprint, build machine on alien blueprint, have no clue what machine on alien blueprint does).

Anyway, looks quite interesting... I'll add it to my mental list of things to eventually (read: in two or so years) put in the mod I'll eventually (read: in two or so years, minus two or so weeks) make. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The intermediate tech probably isn't completely necessary, but I kept it in since that was the suggestion from SJ and it provides a buffer from just gaining the tech through outright espionage. You don't gain the intermediate tech from analyzing enemy ships so you still can't research it or research higher levels in the racial weapons techs.

As for comprehending how the stuff works... I guess it depends on your view point/storyline. I can see your point about comprehending alien tech, but there's plenty of other stories/movies/shows that that present other views, Robotech is one that comes to mind. The humans managed to recreate some of the alien tech onboard the alien starship, SDF-1 and were able to repair it and build new weapons based on reverse engineering what they found. They didn't completely understand how it worked, but they could copy it. Which is basically what I wanted to do, copy enemy designs or use some of the tech in my own hulls and repair captured enemy ships. But to each his own, I though it just provided a different twist on the game.

Re: Capturable Racial Techs
 

The way you have it set up seems to be a good compromise, you can only gain exactly what you steal. I like it.
To bad the AI doesn't analyize. Then you could do it to all the traits. You could throw some random weapons into their ship designs and then maybe get a big suprise later in the game when the Phong show up with Allegiance Converters!

Re: Capturable Racial Techs
 

I think you should remove the intermediate techs, if you don't want the stuff researchable.

The way I think you have it, is that the intermediates are "tech B", while the shard cannons are under "tech C"

Therefore you could steal the intermediates via intel ops, and tehn research the "tech C" stuff.

if you make the weapons tech a "tech B" type, requiring a racial tech to research, then others will never be able to research the weapons.

As it is, you could trade away your intermediate tech, and aliens could research the weapons tech ahead of you!

Re: Capturable Racial Techs
 

Shouldn't the intermediate tech be a racial trait tech? Then the weapons tech tree could not be researched if you analyzed a single weapon.

[This message has been edited by Marty Ward (edited 17 May 2001).]

Re: Capturable Racial Techs
 

I guess this still needs a little tweaking, I wouldn't want to be able to steal the techs through espionage. So I guess I could just change the racial flags on the facility/armor applied techs and weapon techs.

Making the intermediate tech a racial one is kinda redundant might as well just work off the original racial theoretical tech.

It's definately too bad the AI won't perform capture and analyze ops. We could have it take advantage of that by creating different types of attack and defense ships.

Oh by the way capturing a ship with crystal armor does give you access to crystal race facilities. I'm not sure that makes sense since most of the facilities are probably much more complex than just armor. That can probably be fixed by just tagging the facilities with the additional tech requirement of crystalurgy or whatever their theoretical tech is named.

[This message has been edited by jc173 (edited 17 May 2001).]

Re: Capturable Racial Techs
 

You could keep the racial tag on the items you don't want to have stolen/researched. I like the idea of components being able to be analyized, facilities maybe not. With a little editing you could tune it to the way you want with the racial tag. If you use the same prerequisite tech as the key to the entire tree and make it a racial tech the AI only has to research it once. You could then untag any tech you wanted. Your idea is good and can be made to work the way you want.