Getting SEV to work with linux
 

Has anyone had any luck getting SEV to run under Wine? My experience is that it installs just fine, accepts the CD key, but then crashes with multiple "index out of bounds (-1)" errors when trying to run the game itself.

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

I don’t know how well SE5 runs under Wine; however, I know from first hand experience I run really well under Wine. I may fall down once or twice! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

I have tried and tried. Can't get it working in wine or cedega. I have given into building a gaming box with windows on it. Switching between the linux computer and the windows computer with a kvm switch.

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

I am not at all fluent in Linux, but I had the impression that no emulator can cope with DirectX.

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

No its just really hard. Many DirectX games are supported by cedega and even wine.

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

This concerns me since I am looking to switch to Linux in the near future (increasingly obnoxious activation requirements by MS being one key reason). While it is too late for SEV, perhaps we could lobby Aaron to ensure that SE6 is more Linux-friendly - specifically by using OpenGL rather than DirectX?

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

capnq said:
I am not at all fluent in Linux, but I had the impression that no emulator can cope with DirectX.

Wine and Cedega are not emulators (Wine even stands for "Wine Is Not an Emulator").

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

See, told you I wasn't fluent. I thought WinE stood for WINdows Emulator.

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

"While it is too late for SEV, perhaps we could lobby Aaron to ensure that SE6 is more Linux-friendly - specifically by using OpenGL rather than DirectX?"

But if he does that we'll miss out on the cutting edge grafix!


Oh...

And, of course, SE6 will be being made in Indonesia in a Strategy First sweatshop. Probably have a single linear campaign and lots of in-game video to move the story along.

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

We tried at the beginning of the beta process to get him to put at least some effort into testing on Linux under Wine/Cedega. He simply would not go along in any way. (But when you look at how long it is taking to make the game work properly under Windows I guess that's not surprising. Adding another OS/platform to test would have slowed things even more. :-/ )

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

Linux is not a very big market for a gaming platform...

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

It shall become one and I will love SE on Linux

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

If market size is the only criteria, then SE6 should be a console game - perhaps for the Wii where you throw the controller at the TV to indicate rejection of an AI's diplomatic proposal. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

More seriously though, if Linux compatibility isn't taken into account, then there is the real likelihood of SE6 becoming a DX10 Vista-only game - given Vista's draconian media restrictions, that should be a real worry for anyone concerned about cost and control of their system.

It is certainly feasible to produce a game that runs under both Windows and Linux (Dominions 3 being one good example along with the Doom/Quake family and Neverwinter Nights) so now should be a good time to raise this point.

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

Malfador has never gone for the latest graphics tech. SE5 requires only DX 8.1, and it came out well into the DX 9 era. I doubt SE6 will even require DX 9...

Market size is certainly not the only criterion, but it is one. Strategy games don't work well at all on consoles; especially the turn-based variety.

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

Then it is high time to make one that does work well on consules.

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

All we need then is a console that comes with a keyboard, a mouse and 1280x1024 resolution.

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

"Where there is a need, innovation leads, and profit follows." - Me 2006

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

Fyron is right - Strategy games generally don't work/play well on consoles. And as for Linux- its not really worth the effort for a limited audience.

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

Suicide Junkie said:
All we need then is a console that comes with a keyboard, a mouse and 1280x1024 resolution.

... and a huge TV so you can actually read all the little numbers at such resolutions from the couch. Xbox 360 and Playstation 3 have the resolution and keyboards available, but it isn't enough I think.

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

There are some very popular strategy games for consoles, Final Fantasy Tactics, Ogre Battle, Tactics Ogre, Disgaea 1 and 2, most nippon ichi games, and on the Game Boy and DS there are tons that work very well, mainly advaned wars and fire emblem, and some of the tactical RPGs from above have been adapted to the small screen.

The Nintendo DS with it's touch screen could be the perfect platform for Space Empires, the bottom screen is a "command" interface with a small keyboad, and the orders buttons you see in the lower right and across the top of the current screen,and a simplified system map(dots on a grid) where you can touch ships and move them, the buttons controll the map and system windows in the top screen.

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

Those are all strategy-lite though. Nothing compares to a real 4x game.

Natso has been talking about making some sort of SE3-like homebrew game for the DS for a bit now.

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

This is true. Starfury would be a better candidate for the console route. How does one develop for a console, though? Do you need to be 'invited' to make a game for their proprietary hardware? I wonder if one of the major console makers would be interested in a Starfury II for their machine...

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

As far as I know you have to buy out their liscence which costs a few grand, and they have to aprove of the purchase or something. If Big Mutha Trucka can get a liscence on consoles there's not much that can't.....

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

For Xbox, you can use XNA game studio express to get started. They will be releasing a "pro" version that lets you compile for 360 directly some time this year. Of course, this is geared more towards the Xbox arcade type games, and isn't the normal dev kit.

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

Well all Aaron would need to do is dumb down SE V, using Empires At War as an example, and presto he would have a great game for the 360.

O/C dumming down the game would mean that it wouldn't be worth playing, but hey, stupid people love simple games and we all know that most stupid people will fork over $500.00 for a 360 so it goes without saying, the game could be a success.

EAW programs have stated that they wanted to add more depth to the game but the edict was "keep it simple so most people can play it." That is just sad. But it proved to be a good business model as the game sold well over half a million copies. (THATS A LOT of simple minded people money out there.)

Simple sells. Its as simple as that. Make the game simple, and port it to the X-box 360 and then watch the $$$ roll your way.

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

Consoles are the devil of gaming. While Morrowind was made originally for the PC and ported to the Xbox, I get the feeling Oblivion was aimed at Xbox players because I couldn't shake the feeling the game was dumbed down insanely compared to MW.

That being said, you'd have to REALLY dumb SEV down to get it on a console player level. I think even Oblivion was just a little too complex for some of them from what I've been reading.

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

A couple of years from now, DX10 may well be compulsory with DX9 support going the way of OpenGL.

DX10 is Microsoft's big carrot/stick for forcing Vista adoption (and all the DRM-goodness that will allow MS to screw the MPAA/RIAA) so it is likely that they will ramp up the pressure for its adoption, moving from persuasion to coercion.

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

But if most people do not migrate to Vista in a timely manner, as has happened with all previous incarnations of Windows, we've got a wide window of usability for DX8/9... MS is working on a DX9 compatibility layer for Vista though, so it probably won't be a carrot on a stick issue in reality.

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

question, could you put out a game with it's own O/S? like when it installs it makes it's own partition on your HD and has it's own set of drivers and such, effectively bypassing dx10 and vista's compatibility issues? Like say it was one of the smaller linux distros with enough functionallity to install itself, launch the game, and detect and debug the drivers for all the devices? Maybe with a built in web browser and some basic tools....

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

Or why not just a bootable CD?
With a decent amount of RAM, you don't even need a harddrive except to store savegames and preferences, and a USB stick covers that too...

Either a cheap 64meg one for savegames, or a big 2gig one and have the game come on the bootable USB drive.

Its an easily portable game and a security dongle all in one.

The downside is no alt-tabbing out to chat while you play.

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

I have been thinking about buying a 1.0 gig USB jump drive. I am just afraid I might loose it.

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

What an interesting idea. You do know that in the early days of Pagemaker for MS-DOS it included a custom version of GEM Desktop because "Wind'ohs" was so cruddy at the time. So there is a sort of precedent for a custom OS with an application. The problem now is that hardware is many times more complex than in the days of MS-DOS and you'd need to get custom drivers for God-knows how many video and sound cards. Linux can only have drivers that are available with source. Since many companies are not willing to release source and possibly give away their 'technical secrets' MS now has a stranglehold on much of the PC industry because of their control of drivers.

And then there is Direct X, which saves many game developers a lot of time and effort to develop basic graphics libraries. Spending the time to develop a substitute would be a very large hurdle to get over.

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

Linux can have drivers without source. Its more of an issue of the companies not being interested in making Linux drivers, and the community having to build them from scratch by reverse engineering.

There are equivalents to all the DX functions, but they aren't always as robust (OpenGL, OpenAL, etc)

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

The key word here is but. WinXP requires online activation so all MS has to do is close down the XP activation service to force users to move to Vista. Even those with currently activated copies of XP will then need to purchase to cover against the day when it demands re-activation (with one hardware change too many).

As such, continued reliance on Windows (and continued development) risks gamers being forced onto an upgrade treadmill very much under Microsoft's control.

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

AstralWanderer said:
WinXP requires online activation so all MS has to do is close down the XP activation service to force users to move to Vista.

You have to be extremely paranoid to think that MS would stop activation of XP before the planned product life cycle is up. We have at minimum 5 years after they stop selling licenses (which they have not stopped yet). Windows 2000 had several extensions to its support cycle due to customer demand (mostly from the volume license customers), so it is perfectly reasonable to assume that XP will as well.

As such, continued reliance on Windows (and continued development) risks gamers being forced onto an upgrade treadmill very much under Microsoft's control.

No, it doesn't. This is all just typical Internet fud with little basis in economic or legal reality. There is no way MS could or would pull off such a ridiculous kill switch operation.

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

That would only force them to either kill WPA or not use XP. It would not force anyone to use Vista. I actually hope Microsoft is dumb enough to discontinue XP before people stop using it.

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

Why? It carries an obvious financial benefit for them and as Vista's DRM-heavy architecture has shown, Microsoft has relatively little concern for end-users.

Of course, you don't need to take my word for it - Microsoft's own FAQ has the less-than-100% reassurance "Microsoft will also support the activation of Windows XP throughout its life and will likely provide an update that turns activation off at the end of the product's lifecycle" If it was their intention to provide a cast-iron guarantee, why use such vague wording?
Knowledgeable and technical users could use hacks to disable WPA. The vast majority of computer users wouldn't fall into this category.

It certainly would be a PR-disaster for Microsoft but so, arguably, was the introduction of product activation. Given the higher prices charged for Vista and the tighter licensing, the financial benefits are greater and the limited scope for future growth (most people who would/could run Windows already doing so) means that Microsoft's future finances depend more on upgrades, voluntary or not.

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

Current machine upgrades have never been a big source of profit for MS. Most of their OS sales come from licenses on brand new PCs. It doesn't make any sense for MS to kill XP activation prematurely. Doing so will not sell more copies of Vista; manufacturers selling PCs are what will sell more copies of Vista.

The vast majority of computer owners have never installed an OS, and never will. You don't even need to run WPA when you first run Windows on a new machine (at least, for laptops from Dell); most people have never even used WPA in the first place. The very small subset of people that have installed OSes is very much intersected by the subset that can install a hack to bypass WPA. Killing XP activation prematurely provides no financial benefit whatsoever to Microsoft. Nada, zilch.

Don't use DRM as a boogeyman like some trade groups use piracy... it doesn't help your argument.

Your quote from the FAQ even supports my point that MS wouldn't arbitrarily and prematurely stop activating new installations of XP... Again, the end of XP's lifecycle is at least 5 years after they stop selling licenses for it. Even if they don't provide an update to remove WPA, we are at a minimum 6 years from that point. How many new installations of XP will there be in 6 years?

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

While you are correct to point out that the majority of Windows sales come from new PCs (only 10% being retail according to this article), 10% of $13.2bn (Windows sales for 2006) can hardly be considered pocket change. Business users on volume licence programs are not included in that figure so the upgrade market could end up considerably larger.Now this is hyperbole taken to an extreme. First of all, that 10% figure above is a significant benefit. Secondly, most families now already have a computer so even if they purchase a new one, they could still be affected by a forced upgrade for their older system.XP's lifecycle is whatever Microsoft chooses to make it, nothing more. That FAQ is worded in a way that allows them to drop XP activation tomorrow and that alone should be enough to cause concern. Product activation (and DRM generally) allows one side to set, change and enforce terms arbitrarily and while WPA isn't the most serious example, it is certainly capable of being used to consumers' disadvantage.

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

You seem to have glossed over the assertion that the segment of the computer using population that installs OSes on their own is very much intersected by the segment of the population that can download and use a crack for WPA, in the extremely unrealistic event that MS decides to stop allowing activations for it prematurely. Noone will be forced to upgrade to Vista in this manner.

Now this is hyperbole taken to an extreme.

The only hyperbole is your entire premise. I don't feel like repeating myself again; I just hope noone else is fooled by these tired anti-MS arguments with no basis in reality.

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

i should take some pictures of sev on a 42 inch lcd http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Looks really really good. Alas not in linux. Could not get it to work. Now SEV in aix. That would be cool

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

Looking over the previous posts, I was puzzled at your focus on those who had installed OSes and I've now just seen your reasoning.

You seem to think activation only occurs during Windows installation.

This however is not the case - sufficient hardware changes will trigger the need for re-activation (see AumHa: Windows Product Activation for details). So if Microsoft stops XP activations, everyone running an XP system, pre-installed or not, will have to either upgrade to Vista, find a way to disable WPA or be extremely cautious about any hardware changes (especially for motherboards with integrated NICs).

Whether Microsoft will actually do this is speculation but what should be clear is that (a) Microsoft can do it and (b) Microsoft will profit greatly from doing it. Even if you assume that every home user finds and applies a WPA crack, you still have business users who are unlikely to risk this. And they will have to buy retail copies rather than heavily discounted OEM versions.

This however should be enough on activation - it is one reason for moving to GNU/Linux (or another free OS) and the increasingly heavy-handed DRM in Vista will strengthen this. As such it is in all game developers' interests to ensure that their wares work under Wine at the very least.

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

I do not think activation only occurs when you first install the OS. It takes some massive hardware changes to trigger WPA (even your link says so). Most computer users do not upgrade internal hardware any more than they buy retail OS disks (especially when you talk about parts like motherboards and cpus)... they just buy whole OEM PCs when they upgrade. I still posit that a large majority of (computer-owning) people have never needed to activate XP and thus would never be subject to the termination of XP activations. Microsoft would not profit much at all from terminating XP activations.

Business users with volume licensed XP would certainly move to volume licensed Vista, not retail copies of Vista. Why would they not get volume licensing for Vista if they had to upgrade? Unless you are talking about small business owners that do not qualify for volume licensing... in which case, the same exact ecosystem of buying whole new OEM PCs and not doing piecemeal upgrades tends to apply exactly the same as it does for home users.

Product activation is an invalid reason to switch to Linux. There are good reasons to do so, but completely unrealistic paranoia about MS cutting off activation of XP is certainly not one of them. And again with the DRM boogeyman... In all likelihood, you are probably doing Linux adoption a disservice by perpetuating the WPA/DRM scare tactics...

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

I have heard reports of it being triggered by such "major" changes as adding more RAM. (I could have sworn it was on a thread in these forums, but I can't find it now.)

I don't trust Microsoft to judge what constitutes a "major" hardware upgrade. I don't trust Microsoft to judge what software ought to automatically be downloaded to my computer. I don't use Microsoft products any more than absolutely necessary.

Some of the features that I've heard are included in both XP and Vista have convinced me to never voluntarily install either one.

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

RAM, hard drive serial number and the partition volume number (which changes with a format) are factors that are considered by WPA. So upgrading RAM and moving to a new disk would mean 3 changes (out of an allowed 7). Changing the network card (e.g. adding a wireless one or altering its MAC address - sometimes useful with cable-based ISPs) would count as a further 3 so at this point, any further change (video card, CD/DVD drive or SCSI adaptor) would trigger re-activation. Unless you waited for 120 days for the previous changes to "time out" (with XP SP1 onwards).

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

No software is ever automatically downloaded to your computer by Windows without your consent. You can enable automatic updates to have security updates installed automatically, but it never happens clandestinely. The first time you install XP (or run it on a purchased PC), it asks you if you want to enable automatic updates or not. You can very easily change the behavior of automatic updates from the control panel at any time. I see no reason why Vista would be any different in this regard.

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

Hey look, MS has extended support for XP Home and Media Center Addition by 5 years.

"With this announcement, XP and XP MCE will be covered by five years of Mainstream Support (ending in April 2009) and five more years of Extended Support. This move matches the support timeline that had previously been offered for Windows XP Professional."

Just as I thought, the kill switch paranoia is complete bull dookey.

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

Doesn't mean a thing in regard to product activation, which is not mentioned specifically in the announcement. It is still very much at Microsoft's behest and will remain that way until they offer users a means of disabling it.

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

I suppose there is no reasoning with zealots. MS support == activating product, supplying patches.

Re: Getting SEV to work with linux
 

It is essentially the same situation as Steam.

You have to depend on the company's continued existence, or failing that, the availability of cracks.

The company isn't going to be folding any time soon, so it devolves to a matter of principle.