This would have been a lot better than dominions!
 

Even though its really limited and nowhere near as user friendly, if it would have been further improved and expanded, this would have been an pretty decent game.

They should have really contiuned this and never made dominions at all, but sadly they did not!

Well a hybrid half CoE half Dom would have worked well for sure also, but so neither is really as decent as it should be, very sadly...

Re: This would have been a lot better than dominions!
 

> They should have really contiuned this ...

We did some lame attempts on the matter some years ago, but we ended up with doing dom2 instead.

> ... neither is really as decent as it should be

In what ways?

What would you have liked?

Re: This would have been a lot better than dominio
 

I liked CoE just fine, but options for larger resolutions and improved graphics (similar to Dom3 for units and the kind of stuff in your own map for terrain tiles) would make it really kick-*** even with the mechanics unchanged.

For CaoCao, I would like to pose the following question: Are you the same CaoCao who posted on the Stardestroyer.net forums?

Re: This would have been a lot better than dominio
 

There are many things about CoE that are great but its a very different game than Dominions is. And the devs actually have bounced back to it between each version of Dominions.

I think that having two games allows the devs to take a "break" from the other game. They get to do their working on it for the fun of it plans. Both games would probably suffer if they tried to focus on just one of them.

Re: This would have been a lot better than dominio
 

CoE is so clearly an ancestor of Dominions that I'm not sure how it could have been improved in ways that didn't end up pretty similar to Dominions.

Re: This would have been a lot better than dominio
 

CoE and Dom both have their good things, thats why I feel like both lack something the other has and combined and expanded, it surely would have been very hard to balance, but after all it would have been a truely great game.

The feel of uniques in CoE feels a lot better than in dom. And that is while CoE is pretty limited, sure the more you expand it the harder it gets, but at the same time it gets even better.

In dom most races, are pretty similar, there are a lot, but that doesnt help a lot. They might seem different, but in the end they feel all to familiar.

The pleaseant exception like Ermor or R'lyeh
are very nice and I would have liked to see more of these and less "normal" races. Playing these makes the game a lot different and that is good. There has to be normal races but the more unique the better.

I would also like to see something that makes you more attached to your units and commanders, upgradeable troops in CoE were great, even though very limited. And many "commanders" quite important.
The huge item crafting system and heroic abilities in dom are very good aswell, but not enough on their one.
In dom I feel there are to many commanders around with great items, if some die you just forge new items and recruit and/or summon a few new ones. (Same with mages)

Commanders and troops should be able to become very powerful over a long period of time of course. So in the end you have fewer commanders and maybe even troops(depending on your race), but should one die it would be quite a blow and a huge success for any enemy you may have.

Maybe one should even be able to promote a simple unit after years and years of fighting and surviving countless battles. The lonly knight becoming a commander, the archer mastering his skills and being noticed or the lizard city guard who performed all these "tremendous" deeds in defending his country and his god.
That might be like a one in a few hundred chance or less, but oh well, some very few peasant succeded in becoming even kings... (Fire Emblem did this whole "little grunt becomes powerful" pretty good)
The weak experience system just doesnt work well!

Well then obviously more sites, just more to find and locate in all these waste unknown lands(even more sites...) and of course more event, I played games where every round there was at least one event and if it was that rats infected the food storages and ate my supplies so I had to sent a few man to solve the problem or say good bye to my food and probably face a greater rat problem in the near future. Great event, that reacted to how you handled it and just an example.

I could go on, but I guess I wrote more than enough already.

In the end there are not much good games coming out any more, so what ever you do next. I hope it becomes good.

So good luck to you and may you succedd in your task, citizen.

Your Dominar spoke and must now return to his lovely servants. We shall not let them without guidance for too long. They just dont seem to know how to enjoy their short lives without me!

Re: This would have been a lot better than dominio
 

Ah! Thanks. That was a nice, constructive and instructive answer.

I agree on much of what you say. Dominions is designed to have a core similar for all nations, while CoE is less symmetric. This makes dom easier to mod and expand. Dominions differentiates background and nation content, while CoE differentiates the playstyle and game content of the warlords/mages. Interesting point. I hadn't thought about that.

Some of your thoughts are things we want to implement in our next project.

Re: This would have been a lot better than dominio
 

You want more of that?
Ok, scratch the "nice", but otherwise ... :

At first, let me say there's plenty of difference between (at least some) nations, even in playstyle. It would be more apparent if there wasn't "The Great Equalizer"(TM), but I'll come back to that later ...

I doubt Dom3 needs even more RPG-like events: micromanagement can be quite tedious at times already .. imaging sending out 1 commander with a 5-men-squad to hunt some rats somewhere in a backwater province .. . That kind of thing simply does not fit the scope and the focus of dominions, which is battling on a strategic and (big) tactical scale.


That's because
- ressources are worth next to nothing, as you don't need them. Unless you're Ulm, but then you're dead before the mid-game anyway. Everyone is taking sloth and does not recruit national troops after the first few turns, because they're useless unless they belong to the handfull of overpowered F9W9 or N9Ex blessable superunits.
- gold for (national) mages is only of importance unless you have enough mages (and therefore research) to get the (upkeepfree) summons.
- starting in mid-game, everyone is summoning the same generic summons (most national summons are rather bland) using the same summoned mages.

What Dom3 needs are not even more summons (no matter if generic or somewhat restricted), but upkeep cost for everything, as to prevent summons being a no-brainer. Btw., don't even the dragons you summon in CoE2 to guard your mines cost some "upkeep" in form of income they take away from the revenue?

And it needs most likely vastly more expensive mages, or national combat commanders will nearly never by recruited. Shouldn't mages be the exception, not the rule on the battlefield after turn 20, or should they?

Re: This would have been a lot better than dominio
 

Agreed in most parts http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Dragons are the only thing that costs in CoE (and golems that consumes a mine).

Upkeep free magic units in dom was an early design desicion. I have thought about it several times. I will probably make other desicions regarding upkeep in future projects.

Dominions was designed to be a game system, into which you could fit new nations. We did not intend magic to be as generic as it became, but with the limited amount of national summons etc the game was rather converegent at first. Attempts to alleviate this has come a bit on the way, but it will never be fully accomplished.

Re: This would have been a lot better than dominio
 

That is good to hear.



The rat quest was just a example for events that can last several "turns" and change accordingly to your actions.

When you find the deepest cave in the province for example... you could decide whether you want to explore it deeply,
just take a quick look, ignore it completely or even try to seal it up/"destroy" it.

That would provide a lot more options and deeper connecting and lots of additional possibilities.
The more risk, the more possible gain.
Just a few such events would make a game and its world much more alive, with random functions their outcome could be quite different
and you could never know what you might get... The added replay and strategic value would be surely nice to have.

Do I encounter monsters, or even a whole hive? Do I find valueable items/gold/gems/"free units"?
The deeper the exploration the higher the chance for more gems/gold/??? production every turn.

You could also have a option to always be able to destroy some sites, so they do not fall into enemy hands or simple if you don't like their side effects.
If I like the freezing cold, why would I not raze a heat radiating site?
Or imagine a demonic blood temple, where innocent virgins are captured and even sacrificed... how could a righteous and beloved leader not do something against that,
without losing support from his people and feeling ashamed?
Of course, he could not! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

More interaction with sites would be nice, so they are not only gem/gold/supply/unit producer.
After all some are magnificent buildings and most important to you and your race or your enemies...

Surely this is only a small part, but could improve the whole quite a bit.


Your Dominar spoke once again and my trust in you, my most beloved citizen, is great.
Your hard work shall prosper greatly and its fruit be harvested without any delay, for me to enjoy!
If the Dominar is most well, his loyal subjects surely must be as well! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: This would have been a lot better than dominio
 

A thought: It seems to me that magic summons are part of the design. The nations are supposed to become more powerful as time goes on, both horizontally (more provinces, money, larger armies) and vertically (more powerful individual units available). Vertical power is implemented in two ways. 1) Magic summons that must be researched, 2) items to give to recruitable units to put them more on a par with the units available through magic. The problem seems to be that most veterans agree that recruitable+items is almost never as powerful as decent mid-game summon+items.

A possible solution: A third way of introducing an increase in vertical power. Add in researchable spells specific to different nations that create magic sites that either allow the nation to recruit uniquely powerful units (thus adding in an upkeep component to certain particularly desirable troops) or allow mages to 'enter' the site and summon these units 1/turn (to prevent horde-ing).

I know that magic sites exist with these properties, but I don't know if the capacity exists for spells that create them. (Or if anyone would think this is a good idea.)

Re: This would have been a lot better than dominio
 

This idea is implemented quite well in Master of Magic. In that game you get more and more powerful summons but as you develop your cities, you can also produce more and more powerful units. Top tier producable units like paladins can go toe on toe to most summons. And normal units buffed up by spells (like slingers) can also be extremely powerful.

Re: This would have been a lot better than dominio
 

I think dominions is fine as way it is. COE is a quite interesting game, but it is geared towards single player. You always find more interesting encouters etc. But these role playing things are not so good for multiplayer as 1) it creates huge balance problem 2) it makes the turn even longer than it is now 3) multiplayer strategy are based mainly on strategy and therefore predictable things. The role playing element makes random choice and luck much more important and possibly defeat much of the strategy part.

Re: This would have been a lot better than dominio
 

I have only 2 annoyances with COE.

-sneaking armies
This one is annoying because of the very limited vision around your towns and towers, most of the time you find enemy troops in the middle of your whole territory wondering how they could have traveled there without being noticed by your army, towers or towns.
Certainly as a workaround you could send additional single commanders everywhere as scouts, but when i tried this i quickly understood that doing so is hurting your economy so much that you will be unable to field enough troops and so you are in fact dooming your side to lose in lnog term.

-combat rules
The primary annoyance i have with COE, the combat system that gives the advantage to the defense allowing a defensive stack to have all of their units hitting 1st.
Basically if you want to have a chance you must never attack an enemy stack that is globally equal to your troops, because by attacking them they will hit you first, weakening your troops a lot before you have even a chance to retaliate.

Certainly the problem is not big in the beginning of the game when you meet some stacks with 2 militia inside or 1 lonesome deer.
Or against some of the enemy races that field weak troops, but in the case of races that are capable of fielding several stacks like this one :
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/6...board01mn2.jpg
with the combat rules of defense hit first, this kind of enemy stack will always devastate your troops if you attack first, as they have more than 100hp each, multiple attack of strong damage and regenerating (those swamp gods especially i can't believe how much troops and catapults it took me to take just one down http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif).

And because the system always gives the 1st attack to the whole defense units, if you field some good troops yourself, those kind of stack will not attack first, waiting for you to do this (and so to have your troops weakened a lot).

Despite Dominons 3 combat system is turn based too, it avoids creating this problem in a verty elegant way with all the troops positions, scripted orders and units stats that will affect the outcome of the 1st assault.

But for a simpler game like COE that has no conditions to influence the 1st hitting side, it is very unfortunate that both sides do not attack in the same time during a turn, it would have been a lot better than the current system.

Re: This would have been a lot better than dominio
 

Hmm I'd say the point that dominions equalized mid-end game through use of summons if often correct. My suggestion for improvement would be the addition of a few "buildings" (al civ or even better master of magic (not so much of em)) which give the option to produce stronger units with a little better power/cost (either cash or resource) ratio OR (and this would be best) nice special attacks. More specialized units coudl have a role there too.

In the end it'll still end up with all nations taking the most powerfull mages and summons but there would be more steps towards that making the games more varied. Also making more national summons and or other spells and making them more powerfull OR giving them more special abilities would also help a lot in differentiating end game play.

Give some nations strong melee summons, others stronger mages, others weaker summons which summon other special troops that sort of thing.

Making more STRONG unique summons would help too, sure it would be a bit of a race towards the strongest of them but if they cost a lot then the runner up could always take nr 2 and still not be far behind. Or he could focus on killing the summon and then taking it himself.. or wishing for it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Aez

Re: This would have been a lot better than dominio
 

I was quietly following this thread and I'd like to say that I find most of the observations made here to be true. I think dominions is by far better than AOW-SM for example in the "generic multiple races" department but still lacking as was put so eloquently in this thread.

I'm very happy that KO has a similar perspective, so hopefully some resulting goodness will trickle to dominions.

All those references to a future project make me quite giddy - a new game by IW is sure to be deep and entertaining experience (given that this project is indeed a game and not a new 3d engine or some such http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif ).

Re: This would have been a lot better than dominio
 

Funny thing about Dominions is that the strategies you can use are many. If you were to add strategies that would cause people to "rush to a summon or unit" people would counter that. That is a good thing.

The "rush to a summon or unit" in other games (real-time stratgies) make the game boring because there's nothing to counter it. You either get the best units or you are not as powerful. In dominions, it's not that way.

However, remember thant the best thing about Dominions is multiplayer. If Conquest of Elysium has no multiplayer, I'd never play it.

Re: This would have been a lot better than dominio
 

You should try it out because it's made by Illwinter if not for anything else. It's very different from Dominions thanks to the maps being tile-based: seasons are visible and have much greater effect, forests can be burned down, mines depleted etc to harm your enemies or to create golems, etc etc. Besides, it's much more fun in SP that Dominions, IMO. It's much more random, and because it uses the I-go-You-go turn-based system both in map and in battles, it's inherently unbalanced, and thus much less fun in multiplayer than it is in SP where you can mostly disregard that.

Re: This would have been a lot better than dominio
 

Playing a single player game, IMO, is like going to the movie theaters alone. Doesn't matter how great a game is, there's no point in playing by yourself IMO. Just like movies, no matter how great the movie is, I'd never go alone.

Re: This would have been a lot better than dominio
 

Just like reading a book by yourself. I would never do it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: This would have been a lot better than dominio
 

Excellent sarcasm Kristoffer.
And good point also.

Re: This would have been a lot better than dominio
 

Some activities were meant to be done solo, such as taking a shower. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/redface.gif Gaming just isn't one of those activities, IMO.

Re: This would have been a lot better than dominio
 

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I must disagree. Two in a shower can be quite entertaining, and computer gaming has it's roots in single player and I still prefer it over multiplayer.

Re: This would have been a lot better than dominio
 

I'll just note that while in general I tend towards MP much more than SP, COE is just an excellent SP game. While my several week long COE obsession was much shorter than my years of Dominions obsession, it was a very fun few weeks and the genre certainly has it's place.

Re: This would have been a lot better than dominio
 

is there an experience upgrade system in COE?
i tried putting a stack into 'kill anything that moves' mood in the hopes it will gain experience, but doesn't seem to be happening.

and the combat *really* needs some way of balancing defenders strike first. creatures with varying quickness ratings and a bit of random jigging would mean you actually attack rather than hope someone attacks you :S

Re: This would have been a lot better than dominio
 

No experience. Perhaps a pity, but CoE is more of a fast paced - build army - conquer - get bashed - start over - see something fun - get bashed - start over - conquer - see more fun - kind of game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: This would have been a lot better than dominio
 

well, its fun, and can use to advantage, shaman is brilliant, if purely for fact if you possess someone and then move an army onto it, you get to attack first!
shamans rock :}
esp. just possessed a warlock, a druid, an elf queen, and i get all the leader's powers. wow http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

think COE and dominions would be third after master of magic and heroes of might and magic in my list of fantasy world domination games. if Dom was more geared to single player so you could pause and give orders in the middle of a battle rather than a fire and forget battle structure, it would be vying for top 1-2 spots.

but thanks for hours of fun http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: This would have been a lot better than dominio
 

was thinking what could be done to make COE better and realise a lot is already in Dom, namely, customising player, able to create items, research spells.
Other things such as experience upgrades, build structures in cities, tactical control of fighting, i guess comes from playing MoM or HoMM. and ideas for leader's powers and racial ability is what i like most about COE, the creativity and variety http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: This would have been a lot better than dominio
 

Thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I'm quite fond of the shaman myself. Getting other mages is great. I also have a weak spot for the troll king. Mum is my favourite http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I prefer CoE to Dominions regarding single player. It is fast paced, and you come across lots of fun stuff. You die and it doesn't matter that much. Next game is equally fun.

For me Dominions is a bit to serious to play single player. I lack the patience to play Dominions as a SP game. MP on the other hand is great.

Re: This would have been a lot better than dominions!
 

Kristoffer, if you are indeed working on a new game, I hope you are nearing completion (though I suspect you would have said something by now if you were), because Stardock seems to be having a hard time with their Fantasy 4x game and Dominions 3 (and COE 2) seem to share a similar target audience.

Dominions 3 requires a lot of commitment to play and I love the game, but have a hard time coming back to it because it is so multiplayer-oriented. The cheesed-out min-max fest that usually accompanies multiplayer strategy games turns me off, though I have had some fun experiences with Dom 3. And the time it takes to complete a multiplayer game makes it difficult to finish one.

However, COE is a game that I keep coming back to. Heck, I played it again last night. Like others here, I hope the next game is a mix between the two styles.

Cheers!