Scripting Issue - Specifically Retreat Command
 

Retreat should be absolutely ignored during an assassination attempt. I just lost two well kited queen of elemental airs, wearing well over 100 gems in equipment between the two of them and I'm probably just going to set myself AI now, as I lost about a dozen turn's worth of summoning, forging, and planning.

Both queens were set to cloud trapeze in together, and one cast shimmering fields, then retreat, while the other would sit around and double shield tank the enemy army.

Instead, a random disease demon cast on the province they were teleporting from happened to target the queen setup to retreat, and she in turn cast shimmering fields, and then retreated as per her script. How stupid is that? She auto-killed herself.

Please fix this oversight.

Jazzepi

Re: Scripting Issue - Specifically Retreat Command
 

I once sent a Disease Demon against a Prince of Death, who happened to be scripted to cast Darkness. Fatigue got cranked up to 200 or something on the PoD, Darkness didn't bother the Disease Demon any, and he promptly slew the stunned PoD.

Maybe assassination defenders should just ignore their scripts. It's not like anyone plans on getting assassinated.

Re: Scripting Issue - Specifically Retreat Command
 

Except when you script the commanders who are (summoning/researching/forging/patrolling/etc) because you know there are assassins around.

Re: Scripting Issue - Specifically Retreat Command
 

The right answer is to have two sets of scripts, one for normal battles and one for assassination attempts. Maybe the devs will add this to Dom4, if they write it.

Re: Scripting Issue - Specifically Retreat Command
 

While I fully sympathize with your situation I'm not sure I would like to see this fixed by way of completely ignoring retreat on assassination attempt.
It may happen that for equipped mages I'll prefer to sea them die while retreating rather than risk the assassin get their items. I think the retreat command should be more specific, always retreat and retreat except when defending life (vs. an assassination attempt http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif )

Re: Scripting Issue - Specifically Retreat Command
 

Assassins that stay after battle are quite weak ATM. I thought scripted retreating was already disabled from assassination battles, and IMHO it should be so.

I wouldn't mind assassins stealing items from mages, because recruitable assassins are currently very weak. Summons, like Earth Attack or such, will die after battle and they won't return the items to the caster, while the few assassination-causing globals would be pretty nifty if the Furies or the members of the Wild Hunt stole items from those they killed. Being killed should remove the items from them, of course.

Re: Scripting Issue - Specifically Retreat Command
 

I don't like how retreating means instant death during an assassination attempt... it just doesn't make sense. I'm sure there's been plenty of times in history when assassination plots did not succeed because the target ran away.

Suggested Improvement:
What would be a nice change is if your commander/mage ends up retreating during the assassination battle then it would have to run past the assassin and escape the battlefield. If successfully getting past the assassin then the commander/mage retreats into a neighboring friendly province.
My suggestion is not perfect, yet it's definitely an improvement. Perhaps we'll see a change in DOM_4.

Re: Scripting Issue - Specifically Retreat Command
 

I dislike many things about assassination, and instant death on retreat is
probably the main one. I can see it for the assassin, but I certainly cannot
understand why it would be the case for the victim. I think that it comes from
the fact that many, significantly different events are lumped as 'assassinations'.

There should be no retreating from a nightmare, or a horror/elemental attack.
But retreating from a mundane assassination should just mean that the target
flees the province. I would also allow the assassin to flee, if there is a
friendly province nearby. Of course, he would have to fight the enemy army
during the magic phase before he does that. Yes, it would mean three battles
per turn for some assassins. The more, the merrier.

Oh, by the way, the one thing that really pisses me losing really powerful
mages because their five bodyguards were killed. Although I have to
admit that the assassin had huge fear, and maybe it spread just the right way,
and the mage flew because of that.

Re: Scripting Issue - Specifically Retreat Command
 

This would make Caelum unassassinatable (is that even a word? heh, probably not), and so would be way too unbalancing, not just for them, but air nations in general. Not to mention the various other flying SC's and thugs that are in need of a good trip to a wetworks facility.

Re: Scripting Issue - Specifically Retreat Command
 

Hmm? You think that SCs are prone to being assassinated, right now? And who
scripts SCs to retreat, anyway?

Re: Scripting Issue - Specifically Retreat Command
 

You have a good point Tuidjy, it's not likely a situation that comes up often, but I imagine it's possible, as Assassins can be equipped specifically to deal with a known specific SC or thug-type.

Anyway, Jazzepi does.

Re: Scripting Issue - Specifically Retreat Command
 

The AQ in question wasn't really an SC. She was just carrying some gear to keep her alive, a staff of storms, and a bunch of gems.

The one that teleported in by herself without the shimmering fields backup to do damage. She was an SC.

Jazzepi

Re: Scripting Issue - Specifically Retreat Command
 

It wouldn't make Caelum immune to assassinations, only the commanders/mages setup to instantly flee. If you have all your commanders/mages in Caelum setup to instantly flee you're probably not doing very well in MP games or SP games.
I approach game design by logic... and logically a flying mage scripted to instantly flee should escape an earth elemental assassination. If the assassin is another flyer then the game should be designed where one flyer has to run on the ground past the other flyer. Thus both flyers walk once a retreat occurs for game balance. I doubt we'll be seeing a change anyways, but instant death while fleeing doesn't make sense.

Re: Scripting Issue - Specifically Retreat Command
 

Ahh. But if you script a commander to retreat, you gotta pay the price sometimes. Personally, I never script anything but scouts to retreat. I think I'm out-thinking myself if I do that with an SC.

Re: Scripting Issue - Specifically Retreat Command
 

Pay the price? The commander suicided for no reason. Commanders ignore their scripts all the time. I don't see why a commander can't ignore a script that automatically results in their own death. Had that AQ not retreated, and just sat still for the next 20 rounds, the disease demon would have died from the shimmering fields spell.

The only reasons scripting exists is because you can't realistically play out these battles tactically in real time. It's a compromise between giving you control over battles and allowing a game to progress at a reasonable pace.

Jazzepi

Re: Scripting Issue - Specifically Retreat Command
 

Sure,
Still causes a balance question for the nations that include assassins as an element of their forces.

Fundamentally, does anyone thing assassins are overpowered (or even generally worth building / hiring?).

The occassional flee death is the price you pay for someone else choosing a sub-optimal strategy. Sucks when its you.. but...

Re: Scripting Issue - Specifically Retreat Command
 

I don't know how much MP you've played, but assassin spells are actually used quite generously mid to late game, especially disease demon and earth attack. They're not a "sub-optimal strategy" and there's no reason that a unit should suicide itself because it has retreat in its scripting.

All I want is retreat, which is obviously always the worst choice in any assassination attempt (literally standing still and doing nothing would be better), to be ignored during such an attempt.

Retreating from battle is a legitimate tactical choice. There's a reason there's a "fire and flee" option for archers. To punish someone for trying to use scripts properly, by having them execute it in a situation where it's completely irrational for them to do so, when the game is already setup with a form of AI that can, and does, ignore in game scripts is just ridiculous.

And to propose that it's just "a price you pay" is even more so.

Jazzepi

Re: Scripting Issue - Specifically Retreat Command
 

Because the AI isn't smart enough to recognize the difference between "automatically" dying and "probably" or "possibly" dying.

I'm having trouble imagining using "retreat" in scripted orders often enough for this situation to be a significant problem.

Re: Scripting Issue - Specifically Retreat Command
 

I'd like to see retreat order as well as all irrelevant scripted spells (large AE, battlefield enchants etc...) ignored in assassinations attempts.

Actually even communion slave is cast during an assassination, where there is only one mage on the field (and as well an air mage will cast storm or arrow fend against an earth elemental if scripted to do so). It's probably the most ridiculous aspect of the game, and I see no nation relying so much on assassinations that the current system may have a balance justification.

I agree retreat is not the worse problem (except... when it happens). I find the lone mage casting "communion master, marble warriors, (then nothing because he is at 100+ fatigue)" far more annoying.

Re: Scripting Issue - Specifically Retreat Command
 

Yeah, I've found assassination problems.

In a SP game someone put up Lord of the Hunt, and he popped round killing all my Vanadrott/Vanjarls simply by routing the bodyguards. In fact quite often my mage cast thunderstrike, hit and routed his own bodyguards, then routed straight after them. The only answer I found was to kit every high level Van hero up as a thug and not use bodyguards, and that's stupidly gem-expensive and not reliable.

Casting communion master/slave in assassinations is not always fatal, but it's one wasted turn where the mage could cast a spells to defend himself or kill the assassin.

Retreating from an assassination has never happened to me yet, but I'm sure it will eventually.

* * *

I think generally assassins coming across the average mage or even some commanders are going to have a success rate under 50% even tooled up with magic equipment - but then assassins are much cheaper than mages, so that's not unreasonable.

I think the autodeath for assassination targets that rout or retreat should be turned off. Retreating to a nearby province is potentially disruptive (especially if they leave their troops behind) so the assassins would still have some effectiveness.

Re: Scripting Issue - Specifically Retreat Command
 

Yes it is. It's very simple. The AI goes "Hey, this is an assassination attempt, ignore all retreat commands." If the battlefield AI can decide not to cast large AoE Spells like army of gold and fog warriors when a group of scouts attacks, then it can surely be programmed to decide not to retreat in a single situation. It's not even like there's a probability that needed to be calculated, it's just a binary decision. Either the commanders is in an assassination attempt, or they're not.

Jazzepi

Re: Scripting Issue - Specifically Retreat Command
 

I think the best simple solution is to allow retreats and simply disable the target's script. The assassin would still catch his victims, they wouldn't do anything spectacularly stupid, and bodyguards wouldn't be a liability.

Re: Scripting Issue - Specifically Retreat Command
 

That's what I was thinking, until thejeff addressed this. You may actually *want* to execute your script, because if you know an assassin is around, you can prepare something appropriate for your mages to cast. It would truly suck if you scripted Returning because a killer l33t assassin was on the loose, or you're under heavy Earth Attack/Disease Demon bombardment outside your capitol, but your mage casts Astral Shield instead.

I think Jazzepi's idea, to just ignore a scripted retreat during assassinations, is the best idea.

Re: Scripting Issue - Specifically Retreat Command
 

"Retreat" is not the only problem. I've had mages casting useless stuff while being whailed upon by assassins.

The solution is to have a separate script of orders for assassination attempts.

Re: Scripting Issue - Specifically Retreat Command
 

Mages can do worse things that casting useless stuff. They can cast harmful stuff. For example mass protection against abysia.

Re: Scripting Issue - Specifically Retreat Command
 

I agree, see my 'Darkness' story at the top of this thread.

But I also agree with Jazzepi that it's a problem now, that it would be nice to have a quick fix for. Disregarding a scripted 'Retreat' command in assassination attempts is a quick fix.

Redesigning the interface, to allow scripting multiple sets of orders for different situations, does not sound like it could be done in a similar timeframe.

Re: Scripting Issue - Specifically Retreat Command
 

Just had an experience with this. I sent my pretender out early to do some sight searching. Did not have the proper equipment or research to make her effective yet. So, I decided to script her to retreat just in case a random barbarian or bogus attacked occured. No need to take unnecessary risks, right? Well I just so happened to get the random event where an assassin attacks one of your commanders. D'oh! I'm 99% certain the pretender could have killed the assassin, but got killed instead. Fortunately, this was single player.

Yeah, I'd say its a problem. Just changing the code to ignore retreat scripts during assaissination attempts would probably fix this problem.