New nations extremely well crafted and enjoyable
 

I just thought I'd make this thread to express how much I'm enjoying the new nations. While they are powerful they haven't given people fits about balance (yet) which I think is partly because they aren't too powerful in an /unfun/ way and they are extremely enjoyable to play as. The sheer amount of content to be found in them is pretty amazing and the graphics are some of KO's best work to date.

I wasn't that keen on Tirnanog and Eriu when they first came out but I've found that every single new nation has grown on me and they really do put some of the older ones to shame in terms of overall quality.

Re: New nations extremely well crafted and enjoyab
 

I'm glad you made this thread Sombre, as I was just about to do something similar!

And yeah, the new nations really are quite exceptional. Good work KO!

Re: New nations extremely well crafted and enjoyab
 

I think the new nations benefit from the power inflation phenomenon (I just invented that term http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif seen in all gaming.

take AD&D, for instance, when it was first released it had a basic lineup of stuff. Soon the devs were releasing more and more material that tends to be a little more powerful than the original stuff. Handbooks with specialized classes, spells, equipment, and all that stuff. Things that cater to the interests that arose in the fanbase.

I think the newer stuff in dom3 follows the same pattern. it seems a little more specialized, and capitalizes on the meta-game and playstyles present in the community; with the game having been around for some time this kind of knowledge became available to the devs, and it influenced they way they created the newer nations.

Re: New nations extremely well crafted and enjoyable
 

Concur. I really like Bogarus' ability to creep me out in a realistic way. Even though I haven't been played them, I enjoy encountering them in the game. I LOVE the flavor of Hinnom even though I don't play them (blood magic and cannibalism is too much for me). Definitely the most evil race. I get a huge kick out of the historical and mythological allusion behind Hinnom/Ashdod/Gath. Haven't done much with Fomoria or Tir na N'og yet (still haven't finished exploring 50% of the game).

"Hinnom eats everything!" is such a fantastic meme. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

-Max

Re: New nations extremely well crafted and enjoyab
 

Do you really think so? Fomoria, Eriu and Tir Na N'og aren't weak but Fomoria is no Niefelheim (straightforward brute power) and Eriu is no Helheim (ditto). I suspect you're thinking of Hinnom/Ashdod (and maybe Lanka from a while back), and that's not enough to support a trend.

I do think it's possible that KO's love for the source material led to stuffing a lot of stuff into Hinnom/Ashdod, which may need to be balanced by a gcost fix at some point. KO has said before that gcost tends to come at the end of unit design as a secondary issue.

-Max

Re: New nations extremely well crafted and enjoyab
 

I enjoy the new races immensely too and would like to join in expressing my appreciation to the developers.

Re: New nations extremely well crafted and enjoyable
 

I don't see how Hinnom are the most evil race. Their rulers are pretty nasty but the majority of the population are enlightened avvim who come across as semi divine superhumans.

Would people consider Ogre Kingdoms or Mictlan to be evil? They're just continuing their native culture, usually at the expense of other cultures - something all dom3 nations do.

Re: New nations extremely well crafted and enjoyable
 

I tend to identify a nation with its rulers. The Avvim are the oppressed peasants and I long to set them free and bring them to enlightenment. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

-Max

Re: New nations extremely well crafted and enjoyable
 

Well I do think the latest nations and Lanka are a bit overpowered but it's nice to have them around.. I wouldn't mind a new nation that is a bit overpowered and suited for the AI to take advantage of it (I mean that the nation would be overpowered in ways the AI could use instead of just ignoring the options nations have as it usually does http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif) I'm not quite sure the latest nations fit here already.

personally I think the AI just needs a lesson in SC building and killing but I heard that can't be done http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Ow and I think Hinnom is evil.. not most evil though (lanka seems more evilish imho)

Re: New nations extremely well crafted and enjoyable
 

Hear, hear.

I totally agree with you Sombre. While some of the new nations don't really get my imagination going from a gameplay perspective (Eriu, Tir na n'Og - The N/A combo somhow never managed to get my blood flowing) they're all very well done. Great sprites, great stories, intrestingly unique,...

A big 'well done' again for the creator gods of Illwinter.

Re: New nations extremely well crafted and enjoyab
 

Considering power inflation - it is unfortunately not restricted to AD&D... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif But Dominions particularly seems to suffer from it less - partly due to patch fixes later (look at Helheim nerfs).
And while I wasn't a big fan of a whole Gath idea (I look up to EA/LA Machaka & Vanarus much more), it turned out fairly good, though very powerful.
As for Eriu & Tir na n'Og - they probably didn't make such big impression due to the fact that idea was present in Dom2 for a time, aren't they?

Re: New nations extremely well crafted and enjoyab
 

magic the gathering.. not played it in a while but that was the pinacle of power inflation IMHO

Re: New nations extremely well crafted and enjoyab
 

Yes, Tir na n'Og/Eriu and LA Pythium were already in Dom2 as special themes, so it was nice to see them again but that's probably why they didn't make the same kind of impression as Lanka, Fomoria, Bogarus or Hinnom/Ashdod/Gath.

I'd like to see an EA and LA Machaka, too. I think someone has modded an Anansi pretender, which would be a cool option for them. (At one time I had an idea for a Dom2 Machaka special theme where the hunter spiders had become extinct and the Machakans started animating their corpses to become something like the onyx amazon nightmares, with bane fangs instead of poison. I never actually made the mod, but it would fit the overall LA theme of decline and ruin.)

Re: New nations extremely well crafted and enjoyab
 

I want to join the people who thank the devs for the new nations. their flavour is good and they look really cool. about their balance there are some little doubts i.e. in Baalz's HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING thread http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif but still the nations are absolutely worthy ^_^ Tnx very much guys!

Re: New nations extremely well crafted and enjoyab
 

I'd like to point out that I myself have not called for a nerf or change to Hinnom, I quite like them and think they're a bit analogous to an EA version of LA Ermor. These are the children of Gods...if you don't gang up on them and make special plans to deal with them expect them to become practically unstoppable. I love the diversity in this game, that even completely unscripted multiplayer games can turn into quasi-scenarios where nations try with varied success to put aside their differences long enough to keep the undead from killing the world or to break free of the yoke of the old gods.

Re: New nations extremely well crafted and enjoyab
 

Actually I must disagree with this thread. (dont flame me yet)
Everything has its pros and cons. I returned to Dom3 recently to update community offerings I had that were still getting alot of download. I tried to test some changes just to make sure everything worked with the updates.

Have I finished? NO
Have I fallen out of Dom3 again? NO
The problem is that my short little tests have turned into full blown games that I cant give up playing again. The new changes have re-hooked me on the game.
As I said, everything has its pros and cons. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: New nations extremely well crafted and enjoyab
 

In MMO circles, the term used is MUDflation, since in MUDs and MMOs you see the most rapid and blatant inflation, due to people devouring all the content, and then begging for more.

As has been stated above, the devs do seem to be doing a good job with the relative strengths, as in a game that has end points, there is no need to inflate the system at all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I'd wager that if in the next month or so the new nations start to win a suspicious % of their games, that there will be an alteration of their strengths/weaknesses to bring them more in line with the rest of the game. As it is, there's enough feedback I wouldn't doubt a small change already, but there may be hesitation to see how well they actually mesh in MP first. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I have to say, I took over LA Gath in KingMaker, and while I have interesting options and strengths to exploit, I cannot see how anyone could possibly call them overpowered. Ashdod is a little stronger in my eyes, but most nations look stronger to me in their MA incarnations. Hinnom is a beast, and I can see small changes being reasonable - but they really do pay for their early game advantage with a challenging struggle to the late game, due to difficulty exploiting research, difficulty effectively blood hunting while eating everyone, and difficulty having the scales needed for late game while gaining the bless desired for early game.

I think MOST (not all, just most) of the people who refer to Hinnom as "too strong", have mostly only seen them in the early game, and haven't seen how their weaknesses become more and more apparent as the game progresses.


And wow, this is sort of OT, grrrrr. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif I just wanted to express my own appreciation of the new content as well. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif The great thing - to me - about new nations, is you don't even have to play them in a game to benefit from the addition, as interacting with them as an opponent adds just as much to the variety and enjoyment.

<3

Re: New nations extremely well crafted and enjoyab
 

I have to concur with Sombre, there is definitely a creeping up effect in terms of a growing appreciation for the nation and it's atmosphere, as well as an ever increasing quality of the nations themselves. None of the newer nations are dry in terms of sprites, descriptions, spells, heroes, etc.

Lastly, like a fine work of art, they don't have that feeling that something is missing.

Re: New nations extremely well crafted and enjoyab
 

Did the other "appreciation" thread get deleted or something? Don't make me go to YouTube for entertainment!

Re: New nations extremely well crafted and enjoyab
 

Being a MUD admin almost from their birth I have some experience there. MUDflation is a well known phenomenon. To break down some of the many MANY discussions amoung MMO admins..
there tend to be 3 types of "fixers" in MMO gods. Additive (keep making more and bigger armor and euqipment, then fix that with more and bigger monsters). Subtractive (or nerfer) which goes the other direction. And Balance who tries to trim both top and bottom but can look like a person trying to make a perfect circle by cutting a piece of paper taking snips off until they end up with a dot (their balance efforts meet in the very bland middle).

The best results IMHO is that this is one subject where committee works. An MMO head who is willing to hire without giving in to personal feelings about additive, subtractive, and balancer. But is willing to hire them all and allow them to do continual "battle" in the code allowing the game to go up and down continually.

On the other hand I am AMAZED at how well this game does with so few developers. Not just because they are doing all the work, but because they seem able to not give in to being just one type of fixer.

Re: New nations extremely well crafted and enjoyab
 

heh http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image.../firedevil.gif

Re: New nations extremely well crafted and enjoyab
 

I'd like to tell my appreciation on the new races that are beautiful. I'd like some the older races too be reworked and polished in such a way
(Beware, this is not "pushing the devs" or "complaining" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif )

Re: New nations extremely well crafted and enjoyab
 

Me too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: New nations extremely well crafted and enjoyab
 

So tell the devs!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: New nations extremely well crafted and enjoyab
 

It's not that I don't appreciate the new races but...
I think most original races are nicer than the new ones

hard to beat R'hyle (never could type that), Ermor, Pangaea when looking at all sides of a nation combined IMHO

My non-appreciation thread >:P Fomorians.
 

This is just to counter-balance the bad karma I've been getting lately with posting appreciation threads. I didn't get a chance to experience the Fomorians all that much, and they were the most recent nation I got to play with, but I thought I'd mention a few minor things that bothered me about this new nation.

It's not in any way a complaint! The artwork is gorgeous, the nation is very fun to play, and my intention is mainly to confirm that yes, Fomoria is extremely cool, a very welcome addition to the game, and I just want the coolness to go a little further in the direction I want it to.

And to show that yes, there are some things I'm not a total fan-boi about in the game, here's an admittedly short list of things I wish had happened for Fomoria:

1: Why oh why must all giants in Dom3 be cyclopes? Ok, not all of them are, infact most of them aren't, but we already have a race of 1 eyed giants in the Agarthans, plus real actual cyclopses running around. Plus there's probably others I'm forgetting about. I wish Fomorians (except ofcourse for Balor) had had 3 eyes each. Why 3? 'Cause 3's a fun number, and shows up in mythology constantly, and particularly in Irish mythology. It would have been cool as background if King Balor's three eyes, upon encountering the great well of evil that he looked upon, grew together into one single Eye of Doom, making him, uniquely, a 1 eyed Fomorian, rather than the whole race.

2: Fomorians are supposed to have strong connections to the sea, to the dead, and to the sea dead. It would have been cool if more had been done with this. If they had the ability, say, to summon aquatic soulless or longdead Celtic pirates, or something, but only while they were in the water. Also cool if they were the only race that could build fortresses on land and sea both, since that seems thematic to me.
Also, now that Terrain-forms are in, maybe Fomorians could have a water-shape where they turn into some kind of undead when they go into the ocean? That would make strategies involving them a little more interesting.

3: I was honestly disappointed that atleast some of the Fomorians weren't (more) monstrously grotesque. I know some of them have the heads of goats and things, and you probably wouldn't want to date one if George Clooney was answering your calls, but I was hoping-atleast as a subtype or a summons, to get a real freakshow of nasty inbred cannibalistic monstrosities, like giant magical versions of those folks that live in West Virginia and haven't heard about the end of the Civil War yet, and have their own ideas about the benefits of tourism.
Maybe something along the lines of Crossbreeding, that occasionally throws in the extra head or hoof or tentacle? Adding or subtracting to the overall strengths and abilities of any given Fomorian, in a random fashion, in addition to the possibility of disabilities, would also be interesting for balance and strategy.

And maybe instead of Awe, they could have an opposite Disgust ability, where they're so grotesque that once an opponent has struck one, there's a chance that that opponent will go berserk and be unable to run away and stop trying to kill the poor Fomorian until it's dead, or the attacker is-which would be a double edged sword on both sides-and maybe balance out the beneficial stuff I suggested above.

On the subject of grotesque supernatural monsters, Midian would make a fun nation of beastmen, if the Devs are going to continue with the Biblically-inspired nations. I wonder if Kristoffer has ever rented Nightbreed?

Re: My non-appreciation thread >:P Fomorians.
 

> Why oh why must all giants in Dom3 be cyclopes?

Probably because I'm influenced by Powers & Perils, a splendid pen&paper RPG from the early 80's. They have lots of one eyed giants there. Earth giants, Orchi, Searbhani, perhaps others as well. P&P is quite heavily mythologically influenced and I suspect this is one of the reasons Dominions is as well. Greek myth and historiography id full of them. Herdotos writes about one eyed giants. One eye is one of the most common traits of monstrous guys. Three eyes might come second http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. I like cyclopes. But I like three eyes as well.

> Fomorians are supposed to have strong connections to the sea, to the dead, and to the sea dead. It would have been cool if more had been done with this. If they had the ability, say, to summon aquatic soulless or longdead Celtic pirates, or something, but only while they were in the water. Also cool if they were the only race that could build fortresses on land and sea both, since that seems thematic to me.

While I like the fomorians I'm actually a bit dissatisfied that they did not turn out more dead-sea-attuned.

> Also, now that Terrain-forms are in, maybe Fomorians could have a water-shape where they turn into some kind of undead when they go into the ocean? That would make strategies involving them a little more interesting.

Watershapes are cool.

>I was honestly disappointed that atleast some of the Fomorians weren't (more) monstrously grotesque. I know some of them have the heads of goats and things, and you probably wouldn't want to date one if George Clooney was answering your calls, but I was hoping-atleast as a subtype or a summons, to get a real freakshow of nasty inbred cannibalistic monstrosities, like giant magical versions of those folks that live in West Virginia and haven't heard about the end of the Civil War yet, and have their own ideas about the benefits of tourism.
Maybe something along the lines of Crossbreeding, that occasionally throws in the extra head or hoof or tentacle? Adding or subtracting to the overall strengths and abilities of any given Fomorian, in a random fashion, in addition to the possibility of disabilities, would also be interesting for balance and strategy.

I agree. I did want a bit more variation to their monstrosity, but it demanded more work both from me and from JK. There is no random unit recruitment. The random afflictions was the second best thing.

> I wonder if Kristoffer has ever rented Nightbreed?

Only parts (according to my brother, who knows what I have seen and what not).

Re: My non-appreciation thread >:P Fomorians.
 

I will also show my appreciation for the new races. Before the patch came out I was thinking how utterly important it would be if a race had a decent astral forger, then Kristoffer picked the idea out of my brain.

Off-topic
---
On the Fomorian front, I personally like the idea of combining the waterform with underwater animation. An easy way to do that is to make their underwater form typed as undead. That would be an interesting way of making them more dead-seaish.

Nightbreed, aka Cabal.
 

Nightbreed is a personal favorite of mine. It's very much 80's style horror, so it's a little campy (not as much as most 80's horror films though), but it's 80's style horror taken in a completely different-deeper and more compelling-direction. It's even better than Clive Barker's Hellraiser in many ways, in my opinion, and a great movie for Dominions 3, because it combines real world mythology and archetypes with stuff right out of Barker's grim and bloody imagination. It's also one of the sexiest (without descending into outright pornography) movies you're likely to come across, providing you don't mind your fantasies and nightmares intermingling.

I keep hoping against hope that they'll remake it, without ruining it ofcourse. It'd lend itself well to a series too, or a graphic novel, even a video game. There's just tons and tons of content that's only touched upon, but leaves me wanting a lot more.